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Author Topic: Beginner's Mafia 4: End - Winter Wonderland  (Read 54417 times)

dakarian

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #210 on: November 06, 2009, 07:51:10 am »

This'll be interesting to hear.

Just a comment here - as I'm new, I'm going to assume I shouldn't feel bad about having little to no knowledge of these people's history. I don't know how they play. I suspect it's a disadvantage for me, but I'm just trying to do what I can while I can.

To quickly address this:

Normally you would be correct: knowing a person's history (or 'meta' as it's called) is very powerful.  However, in this game just about everyone is pretty new to this place: some never having shown up at all until this game.  As such everyone is floundering without any past history to read. 

So for this game, no you are NOT at a disadvantage.  You know almost as much about these folks as I do (excluding the "Host knows everything about the game" business ;)

Current Vote Count:
SirBayer[1]: Vector
CobaltKobold[1]: RedWarrior0
Org[2]: Tehstefan, CobaltKobold
Laetificus:[1]Apostolic Nihilist
Apostolic Nihilist[1]: SirBayer
Tehstefan[1]: Laetificus

Note Voting: Org

Deadline: Monday, 11am EST
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SirBayer

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #211 on: November 06, 2009, 12:22:45 pm »

@Vector: Why don't I follow up my suspicions on Org? Because we're not gonna hear anything from him until the end of the freaking round. There's no point asking a question of someone who isn't going to answer.

Emotional appeals: Vector, you've counted me out as scum already. Responding to a question I wasn't asked, I'm just gonna point this out: I, while not the most dangerous scum, could be one of the most, were I to be scum. Think about it. You've all on some level passed me off. If I were scum, nobody would really... suspect me, because this is just kind of how I play. Lazy-like.

Regarding WIFOM: If you read the statement while ignoring the WIFOM, as suggested by... was it Dakarian or Webadict? I don't recall, but the point is if you do it that way, it makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Isn't this a game of logic?

Final question: Why do we ask these questions of these people? I don't understand what we're meant to get out of them. If I were scum and someone asked me all these questions, I'd answer in exactly the same way as I do as town: completely honestly. There's got to be a better way to find the scumtells we're looking for.
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tehstefan

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #212 on: November 06, 2009, 12:27:05 pm »

Everyone! I have a trip, and will not be back until sunday. I wanted to let you all know. I plan on reading and posting on sunday, just letting everyone know why I may seem to disappear for a bit.
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I suspect you've never tried doing many illegal things yet in your game. The second the CCS knows you're "active", they'll come down on you like the hammer of God.

dakarian

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #213 on: November 06, 2009, 12:45:32 pm »

Thanks for telling us about it, Tehstefan.  It has been noted.
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Apostolic Nihilist

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #214 on: November 06, 2009, 02:40:07 pm »

Right, so I figure I'll try analyzing everyone since I just realized I haven't been contributing much in this mafia. I've organized them into priorities, roughly.

Vector - He's helpful and furthermore acting extremely pro-town. This is hardly good, as most people have stopped suspecting him. If he's scum, we're in a bad situation. A really bad situation, in fact. I'm not picking up any scumtells, but we need to watch him. If he isn't dead in a few days, we need to start suspecting him a lot more. He should be one of the scum's first targets.

Laetificus - He's somewhat helpful, but he's not pressing people much. His latest jab at tehstefan was his only such in the game. At the very least, he's not active lurking and most of his posts have content.

CobaltKobold - There is little to say -- he's active and pressing people. He probably has the most posts in this thread, actually, and since he's a new player I sort of doubt he's scum. Most scum would be hesitant to put themselves in the spotlight by making so many posts as they figure the more posts they make, the more people can analyze.

RedWarrior0 - Mostly silent. He seems like he's trying to slide under the radar, but it could just be his lack of posts. At the very least, the posts he makes do contain content, most of the time.

SirBayer - Bragging about how dangerous he'd be as scum?... er, anyways. He seems to not like asking questions and is indeed trying to stop or at least avoid them. He's acting suspicious. It's similar to how I acted when I was extremely new and town, so it could just be that. Either way, he's not helping town much as it stands.

tehstefan - He's out of town, so it's a bit difficult to question him. He's posting a decent amount, but he's levying no hefty suspicions. Altogether he seems to be a bit wishy-washy, but he seems to be improved from Beginner's Mafia 3, which is more than I can say about myself.

Org - Org is Org. Lurk. Lurk. Maybe an active lurk here and there. This means he's a great scum, but it also means he's really not dangerous at all. As long as we aren't stuck with him at Lylo, we can deal with him. At the very least though, we should try and stir him up, which is what I was trying to do earlier. He's also an expert at evading questions it would seem.
Org, tell me: Does SirBayer strike you as particularly scummy? He doesn't seem to care much for questions, which is mostly what this game is based around at this stage. He's trying to reassure us that he's town by reassuring himself that he's answering 'completely honestly'.
He was also grasping at straws to implicate me earlier, though I'm not sure why -- faulty reasoning is often present in scum's accusations.
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SirBayer

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #215 on: November 06, 2009, 04:11:34 pm »

He was also grasping at straws to implicate me earlier, though I'm not sure why -- faulty reasoning is often present in scum's accusations.

[citation needed]
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Dude, you don't want to be messing around with imperial assloads.  The conversion rate to horseloads is atrocious.
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CobaltKobold

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #216 on: November 06, 2009, 05:22:47 pm »

I, while not the most dangerous scum, could be one of the most, were I to be scum. Think about it. You've all on some level passed me off. If I were scum, nobody would really... suspect me, because this is just kind of how I play. Lazy-like.
I did not. And you tell me what I know to be why I do not think you should be discounted:
Quote from: SirBayer
If I were scum and someone asked me all these questions, I'd answer in exactly the same way as I do as town: completely honestly. There's got to be a better way to find the scumtells we're looking for.
Clearly you can't be COMPLETELY honest as scum, though, else: "Are you scum?" "Yes." *lynch scum*. Basically all exceptions boil down to this and trying to not implicate others. It is these that we look for. And shoddy reasoning as AN claims and then you point out in him.

Org, come out and post.
AN, please point out the "faulty reasoning" of Org.
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Tilesets

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #217 on: November 06, 2009, 05:39:31 pm »

I, while not the most dangerous scum, could be one of the most, were I to be scum. Think about it. You've all on some level passed me off. If I were scum, nobody would really... suspect me, because this is just kind of how I play. Lazy-like.
I did not. And you tell me what I know to be why I do not think you should be discounted:
Quote from: SirBayer
If I were scum and someone asked me all these questions, I'd answer in exactly the same way as I do as town: completely honestly. There's got to be a better way to find the scumtells we're looking for.
Clearly you can't be COMPLETELY honest as scum, though, else: "Are you scum?" "Yes." *lynch scum*. Basically all exceptions boil down to this and trying to not implicate others. It is these that we look for. And shoddy reasoning as AN claims and then you point out in him.

Org, come out and post.
AN, please point out the "faulty reasoning" of Org.
Not of Org, but of SirBayer:
I don't see any need for an extension. Unvote.
Martyr Syndrome is as scummy as they come.
Town has no valid reason whatsoever for spreading WIFOM.

'Scuse me, but am I the only one picking up some bandwagoning here?

Apostolic Nihilist, what say you to that?
If I hadn't voted Martyr, he could've tied the vote with a vote on Org; in other words, it wasn't bandwagoning at all, and I'm not sure why SirBayer believed it to be.
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CobaltKobold

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #218 on: November 06, 2009, 05:46:53 pm »

Ah thank you for the correction.
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Vector

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #219 on: November 06, 2009, 10:07:05 pm »

@Vector: Why don't I follow up my suspicions on Org? Because we're not gonna hear anything from him until the end of the freaking round. There's no point asking a question of someone who isn't going to answer.

And if he's scum?

Emotional appeals: Vector, you've counted me out as scum already. Responding to a question I wasn't asked, I'm just gonna point this out: I, while not the most dangerous scum, could be one of the most, were I to be scum. Think about it. You've all on some level passed me off. If I were scum, nobody would really... suspect me, because this is just kind of how I play. Lazy-like.

So you're generating emotional appeals and telling us we should lynch you, except for the fact that you're noobish scum who doesn't know how to do anything but defend himself.  Oooh, you're dangerous.  So scary.

How about you go scare the pants off the scum, rather than sitting here WIFOMing the town?  Go on.  I'm sure you can do it.

Regarding WIFOM: If you read the statement while ignoring the WIFOM, as suggested by... was it Dakarian or Webadict? I don't recall, but the point is if you do it that way, it makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Isn't this a game of logic?

It is also a social game.  Consider a person who is lying.  You want to find out that they are lying.  As such, you must consider the opposite of their statement.  However!  Maybe that's just what they want you to think, and maybe they are telling the truth...

That is WIFOM, which cannot be ignored unless you know the truth.  Scum.  This game is more social than logical.  It is logical when you consider power roles and things scum will not do under any circumstances.  Otherwise, you can map it onto normal social situations.  RVS = polite social chitchat... trying to figure out what others' motivations are.  Then we get into the heavy conversations, the voting, the late-night discussions, the attempts to find out who is your friend and who is your foe.

Think about it like that.  It might help.

Final question: Why do we ask these questions of these people? I don't understand what we're meant to get out of them. If I were scum and someone asked me all these questions, I'd answer in exactly the same way as I do as town: completely honestly. There's got to be a better way to find the scumtells we're looking for.

Eventually, someone is going to slip.  You can't play the want to play.  This game is one of uncertainty and paranoia, but you can't get locked into fear of losing.  You have to ask questions, and you have to lynch.

Change your behavior or face lynchery.
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dakarian

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #220 on: November 06, 2009, 10:20:11 pm »

I can butt in a bit on the 'why ask these questions' matter.

Townies and scum have two VERY different goals in the day time:

Townies: kill mafia

Scum: Don't die

The townie side is obvious since the only way they can win is to lynch the enemy.  The scum..remember that they have the allmighty NightKill, which lets them off townies as they want.  Meanwhile, the only way they can lose is to be lynched.  The result is that, although a mislynch is nice for them, they only NEED to make sure they don't die.

Thus, the townie ends up with a need to kill during the day.  Paranoia, panic, and betrayal fills them: someone that calls you 'friend' wants you dead, and if you don't kill them, they will kill you.  Thus, townie aggression.  Scum doesn't care who dies so long as they don't die.  They lynch someone NOT because they are 'scummy' but because 'they aren't me'. 

Scum can play and pretend that they are being honest and true.  However, it's an act.  No matter how good you are, your true colors WILL show eventually.  The small cracks that demonstrate that are scumtells.

Everyone has their own ideas on what marks a scumtell and what brings one out.  Your goal is to figure out who is being genuine and who is lying to you through any (legal) means possible. 

Just try to look at individuals and try to decide "are you really desperate to kill a mafia or are you just trying to keep yourself alive?"

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Vector

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #221 on: November 06, 2009, 10:46:54 pm »

You can't play the want to play.

... I'm sorry, I have no idea what the hell I even thought I was saying there.  Just ignore that sentence, please.
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pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

CobaltKobold

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #222 on: November 06, 2009, 10:55:11 pm »

But I do. You were saying "You can't play the way you want to play", contrary to the attitude of the (town) Vector I know.
4. I do not have to play the game by your standards alone, Free Beer.
This is a game he was town in, people. Take note.
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Laetificus

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #223 on: November 06, 2009, 11:21:37 pm »

If you look at the state of this game this far, things seem rather in shambles. And, I guess they should be. No one's been clearly dim enough to give away any caught tells, so the amount of pressure builds and falls at a calculated rate.

Alright, the town is left with a dilemma. At this rate, a lynch that was similar to the lynching of Martyr Syndrome (A confrontation between actually being mafia or just being a purely useless town) is likely to occur. Regardless, my only lynch target has left! I have faith that he's actually having fun somewhere and not simply avoiding the game, unlike several others in this game.

Recently, RedWarrior0 and Org are rising on my suspicions list. Not only are they not actively participating, they tend to pop in at certain times, if only to go with what the crowd is doing, or attempt to relieve pressure when everyone's jumping on them (if only for a short while). These guys are jumping on the subtle bandwagons, if they're actually talking. It's suspicious as far as I take it.

Also, on the opposite scale, active players, perhaps not ultra pro-town ones like Vector and CobaltKobold, but the slightly less sure footed (or at ones that are pulling that) such as SirBayer and tehstefan should be kept under some light.

Sirbayer, you seem to be suffering from a combination of defensiveness, jumpiness as well as tunneled thinking.
This'll be interesting to hear.

Just a comment here - as I'm new, I'm going to assume I shouldn't feel bad about having little to no knowledge of these people's history. I don't know how they play. I suspect it's a disadvantage for me, but I'm just trying to do what I can while I can.

Assuming, then, that scum would not request extensions willingly (completely ignoring any WIFOM), the only remaining suspects are Myself, Org, Laetificius, and Apostolic. I'll try to clear myself by pointing out that scum would not want to include themselves in a narrowed group, especially new scum. Whether or not that works, whatever.

I'll think about interrogation... later. ._.

Let's see... hiding behind the fact that you're newer than any of us (save for me), trying to bring the fact that scum won't willingly vote for the extension (and seemingly ignoring that they can act) and that people who didn't are therefore highly suspicious. This is group that includes yourself isn't it? Hm... I remember hearing something, how do we play? Lazy-like? I guess. The extension was already passed, so there was no further reason to jump the bandwagon, I take it.

I'd also love to hear any more ways you can suspiciously dodge questions.
Regarding WIFOM: If you read the statement while ignoring the WIFOM, as suggested by... was it Dakarian or Webadict? I don't recall, but the point is if you do it that way, it makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Isn't this a game of logic?

Mafia: A game of logic. A perfect deflection, right? After all, that's all mafia should be. Aside from the caustic environment created in order to crack people's minds. Aside from the fact that logic is perfectly directional. It can be made to drift, and land exactly where you please. Of course, the WIFOM is exactly what happens when this goes astray, sometimes preferably.

Final question: Why do we ask these questions of these people? I don't understand what we're meant to get out of them. If I were scum and someone asked me all these questions, I'd answer in exactly the same way as I do as town: completely honestly. There's got to be a better way to find the scumtells we're looking for.
You're acting as if asking questions and suspicion is a unimportant part of the mechanics of the game. Well, in a game based around logic, what do we want people to do? We need them to say things, we need to see them when they're vulnerable, when they're defensive. If no one asks anything, there's no way any scumtells would ever be made. Scumtells are a manifestation of irrational judgment and emotions caused by how the gears in this game turn.

dakarian

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Re: Beginner's Mafia 4: Day 2 Eye of the storm
« Reply #224 on: November 07, 2009, 12:14:57 am »

Org is currently being prodded

Redwarrior and Tehstefan had already said they'll be away this weekend so they are covered until Monday.

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What was I doing with Mr.Person through most of Day 3, lovemaking!?
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