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[Angela Christine]

Yeah, because murder is so much more moral than prostitution.    :roll:

[Rooster]

of course its not but THIS IS ONLY A COMPUTER GAME!!!

[20,000leeks]

Microcosm/macrocosm. That's the problem.

[qalnor]

quote:Originally posted by Rooster:
<STRONG>of course its not but THIS IS ONLY A COMPUTER GAME!!!</STRONG>

Exactly. You say that people should have to choose between prostitution and no prostitution.

Should we have the choice between murder and no murder?

I'm not saying that there aren't times when it's appropriate to allow screening of content, so that people who are offended by something don't have to be offended by it. But I consider that to be a visual issue, not a conceptual issue.

There is nothing visual about dwarf fort, really, it's basically an ascii game. And until dwarves start whipping out their naughty parts and going at it in full technicolor, I see no particular reason that it is any worse than the 'violence' which is 'thrust' upon us when dwarves kill things.

If the violence were, again, in full technicolor it would again be appropriate to want some sort of visual filter. Although frankly not because I think anyone should use such a filter, but simply because it's the only way some young people will ever be allowed to play games which include boobs and decapitations.

That's not what we're talking about here. What is being discussed here is asking for the ability to choose what concepts are in the game or not, and in that case, again, you must refer to violence and ask yourself if you really want violence to be a toggled option.

Would it even be a game, in that cirumstance?

[Aquillion]

...um, in any case, I think the discussion about prostitution is a bit overblown.  I think that it could be something that shows up in human towns to indicate that you have a particularly seedy or poor part of town or something, but it's not like the name of the game is going to change to PROSTITUTION FORTRESS with an ascii video of prostitutes at the beginning...  I don't think we need prostitution workshops or a prostitute job setting or anything like that, either.  It would just be a flavor thing, something the player probably wouldn't notice unless they carefully went over everyone in their town or hit 'k' or 'v' and examined everyone one-by-one.

[ November 05, 2006: Message edited by: Aquillion ]

[Pacho]

I think y'all are thinking too far ahead.  There's not really much of a social structure yet.  Why don't y'all let this discussion happen later when it's actually relevant?

[Noglet]

I defy anyone to resist this thread.

What the prostitution idea would need is Dwarf libido and sexuality. That =may= have an outcome in sex trade: or it could have an outcome in monogamous familial couplings, courtships, casanovas, fetishists and so on. All depending on the economic climate, leisure time, personal wealth and so on, and affecting individual dwarf happiness -- of course in relation to the extent to which =that particular dwarf's particular sexual needs are met=.

I'd always imagined Dwarfs with pretty elaborate ritual courtships and a low sexual appetite, myself: their sex-drive is sublimated by their money-drive. I mean, they prefer gold to sex.

Perhaps if there wasn't enough gold, things could get interesting.  

It's also interesting to me that some contributors above (hello) mentioned internal fortress politics in this context. There =is=, I think, a connection worth thinking about between libido and social fracture and struggle, or straightforwardly social power and prestige, which might be interesting in The Game.

The social dominance of the historical aristocracy was significantly a sexual dominance of subordinate classes, and the nobles could have this as part of their make-up. See e.g. Michel Foucault's "Sexuality"; and for primary reading perhaps the Marquis de Sade, the novels of Fielding and Richardson, Shakespeare's Measure for Measure. If you  don't feel like reading (it's ok, I understand) Rob Roy, the film, is obviously about exactly this.

Sorry to seem so pretentious, I really can't help it.

[qalnor]

I have to say, I think you miss the mark a bit with de Sade, I don't think his is a very good example of the sexual depravity of the nobility.

De Sade was a nobleman and while, yes, he certainly was a pervert, he also spent a great deal of time in prison for being such a pervert.

De Sade more than anything was an intellectual, and his depravity was separate from his nobility.

Generally speaking though, that's a very good point, and it would be interesting to see that done as well.

[Rondol]

First off, it's nice to see Qualnor doing such a great job of making friends and stirring up discussion. If he's good at anything, that's it. I've seen him do it before, though the product was much less... productive. Plus he got banned about three times. Or was it only twice? Do you remember Qualnor? (Talking about your visit to the IVAN boards, by the way.)

Back on the topic of prostitution, it's certainly something that doesn't need to be worried about at this point in development. Also, I personally wouldn't want to see it in the game. Yes, indeed, the game has exceptional depth and complexity, but it's also a game I play because it's fun. Prostitution wouldn't add much fun for me other than the occasional immature "Heh, heheh, they're doin it." As was mentioned before, 200 individuals is hardly a large enough city for prostitution to become much of a trade.

Actually, I have a lot more to say on this topic, but I'm quite limited for time. I need to get to work. If I remember, I might make another comment or three when I get home.

[qalnor]

I was banned off Ivan's boards once, as I recall, and that ban was immediately rescinded by the administrator after speaking with him privately.

Nice try exporting drama, pretty well demonstrates why nobody posts on those forums including me -- by choice.

Not to mention this is a fantastic advertisment for that game, I'm sure the devs there appreciate your excellent representation.

[qalnor]

On the subject of your comments about prostitution, I don't really agree that it wouldn't add anything except 'heh heh they're doing it'.

My intention and justification for this concept is because it's another way to limit the efficiency of your operation and add complexity.

We should start with the following assumption:

Prostitution is not desirable to a society wishing to maximize production, because prostitutes are generally unproductive members of society. (I'm no hypocrite by the way, this isn't a moral judgement, just a fact; from my perspective there is room in society for things which aren't productive but that's not what we're talking about here).

Prostitutes have the same effect that most of the nobles do -- adding complexity with no real benefit to the player, only additional challenges to minimize the impact of the nobles and, in this case, prostitutes.

One of the biggest examples of this is the hammerer noble. Does the hammerer noble contribute anything productive to society?

No, he makes it harder to be productive because now not only do your dwarves get arrested for violating the orders of a noble, but they are critically wounded for doing so as well.

What is the point of the hammerer? To go 'heh heh violence that's funny'? No, the point of the hammerer is to add new challenges for the player. Now he has to either obey the nobles, face the consequences, or else proclaim 'death the nobility viva la dwance'.

In the case of prostitutes, prostitutes are the result of the existence of two distinct classes:

1. Poor individuals whose work does not provide then with a sufficient income to live happily.

2. Unhappy individuals whose work provides more than sufficient income to live happily, and yet somehow they fail to do so.

Actually in a sense, when one looks at it this way, prostitution is not necessarily unproductive because it fills a need for production that isn't filled by money.

Anyhow, my point is, the point of this is to add complexity. There are fair points made why it doesn't make sense for dwarves, and I'm willing to accept that personally.

I just take issue with some of the ridiculous arguments that have been made against its consideration, including yours, which is barely better than the morality arguments.

[Rondol]

On second thought, I suppose mentioning any of my other comments regarding this matter would be thouroughly meaningless.