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[Shingo]

I have to say, I'm reallly intrigued by the suggestions for alternative methods of obtaining nobles. However, I think there's a few questions we need to ask ourselves, before we accept those ideas as viable.

1. Do our Dwarves believe in a "ancestry is everything" kind of mentality? i.e. Your dad was a peasant, and I don't care if you're legendary in everything under the sun and then some, now go scrub floors you dirty knave.

2. Do our Dwarves, instead, place more import upon personal merit? i.e. Aye, ye hast done well, laddy. We hereby premote ye into "Ye Olde Nobility."

3. Does the concept of the entire Dwarven populace (of your fortress) voting, in order to elect a Dwarf to a position of Nobility "mesh" with the examples of True Nobility that we see? I have a hard time envisioning the two co-existing in Dwarven society, due to the apprehension it would cause the "true Nobility" of the DwarfHome, in that they'd have to wonder "If the peasantry can elect one of it's own to become the mayor, what next? Someday they might try to elect someone to my position. What about my Son? Or his Son's Son? I'll not stand by and watch the peasantry destroy my family!"

And then I'd like to ask  Toady about some hereditary issues...

In Dwarven society are positions of Nobility hereditary?

If so, how does inheritance work? Is this a "male only" kind of thing? In which case only sons would matter for such purposes. Secondly on the issue of male/female inheritance issue, if say.. the King were to have one son, and one daughter... They grow to adulthood, and throughout the course of these events the daughter gives birth to a male. And then all of the sudden the Prince dies, and then the king dies. Would the offspring of the daughter then be eligible to ascend to the throne? Or would they be disregarded, as not having been produced by a daughter, as opposed to descending directly from the son?

Furthermore, in the "Civilization" section, when viewed through DF mode, there seems to be an equally likely for the "ruler" of the Dwarven society to be a king or a queen. Is this intentional (I've never seen a female ruler of the humans or Kobolds, etc.), or is it merely something that is occuring due to attention having been focused elsewhere during production, thus far?

[ November 03, 2006: Message edited by: Shingo ]

[qalnor]

quote:Originally posted by Shingo:
<STRONG>3. Does the concept of the entire Dwarven populace (of your fortress) voting, in order to elect a Dwarf to a position of Nobility "mesh" with the examples of True Nobility that we see? I have a hard time envisioning the two co-existing in Dwarven society, due to the apprehension it would cause the "true Nobility" of the DwarfHome, in that they'd have to wonder "If the peasantry can elect one of it's own to become the mayor, what next? Someday they might try to elect someone to my position. What about my Son? Or his Son's Son? I'll not stand by and watch the peasantry destroy my family!"</STRONG>

Following this line of thought, it could be imagined that the system of selection might change over time.

In a dwarvish society dominated by a few wealthy individuals and a great number of relatively destitute dwarves, you would probably never see a lowly peasant rise to the status of mayor.

On the other hand, in a more wealthy society where there is a middle class of dwarves, those dwarves who occupy the middle class might press for 'democratic' political reforms, which would allow individuals outside the noble families to occupy positions of high state.

[Rooster]

i'm happy that you guys stopped "backstabbing" what was on begining was a true word war about morality. are you happy now?

[Draxxalon]

From what I've seen of the nobility, it appears to be gender-neutral as far as positions of nobility.

IE, you can get a Baron + his consort, or a Baroness, and her consort.

Now, whether said positions are gained through bloodlines, election, age, beard length, alchohol tolerance or one's ability to ride a greased elephant... I have no idea.

If Toady ever wanted to make the game more based on birthrate, instead of immigration it wouldn't (shouldn't?) be too difficult to ensure that you always have gender pairs at the start, and/or some children that accompany the dwarves (kind of like the metalsmith can sometimes have a mate and/or children with him.   I've gotten metalsmith, peasant, and two children once).

It could even be an option you choose at the beginning:  Dwarven Colony (immigrant-fed), or Dwarven Founders (you start out with a couple more dwarves, and a few more supplies, but never get immigrants, and either no dwarven caravan, or they are just treated like the other caravans)  The latter would be inherently more difficult (dead dwarves hurt the population a lot more).

[Citizen of Erl]

I stopped reading this at about the top of page three.

But my favorite part is how people opposed to it are being called Americans as though it were some horrible insult, and as though the US were the only nation that outlaws prostitution.

Also, this whole "debate" makes me think of FATAL. And that's a sad thing.

[DDouble]

Haha i dropped in on the first and last page just for fun and I have to say, this is defintely the dumbest discussion I've ever seen.

"Nazi dwarf prostitutes"
"Moral issues with a dwarven red light district"

People, get a grip! Why are the longest threads on this forum always the worst? Its like the things cant go past 2 pages unless there's a stupid argument going on.

[20,000leeks]

Eh, moral issues discussion aside...

From observation, it appears that the dwarf society in respect to aristocracy is quite odd. First off, most Nobles do not and will not work. Except to haul certain things and pull plants out of the ground, jobs that are usually the province of the lowliest peasants. Hmmm.

Likewise, if a Noble breaks the law (in my experience, that is), they'll go to gaol. No *wink* "we were at dwarf university together" judge-lets-them-off-with-a-warning that seems/ed to plague similar setups in human societies (I mean no offence to anyone here, just that there *are* quite a few suspect cases out there). And this happens with both elected and hereditary positions of power. Hmmm again.

So, so far it's safe to assume that dwarves are a little more serious about duty than humans (the Law is the Law, whether you're scrubbing frogman-blood or screaming for brass weapon-racks in your richly appointed study). Unfortunately, this *still* doesn't resolve the hereditary-elected question.

Personally though, I'd tend towards the dwarves assigning positions through merit. If the House Fer, Ber, and craft representatives are anything like trade unions, one would expect the representatives to have some experience in the field. Likewise, it's safe to assume that the trade minister was once a particularly competent broker, who was once a particularly competent haggler-with-other-traders-for-whom-there-is-no-real-job-description.

No Nobles have any skills at all when they first show up, though, and the titles of the higher nobility have parallels with feudal human society, indicating a hereditary position.

So I guess it comes down to personal preference (i.e. what you like to believe about your bearded buddies) until something is actually coded into the game.

[Draxxalon]

DDouble + Citizen of Erl

Perhaps you should read beyond the flame war...

There actually is an intelligent discussion going on, after that point.

Well, there was before you guys posted, anyhow.

[Angela Christine]

quote:Its like the things cant go past 2 pages unless there's a stupid argument going on.

What would a long thread without an argument look like?

[First guy] Hey, check out this idea I have. {idea}
[Second guy] Killer idea!
[Third guy] I love it!
[First guy] Thanks.  High fives all around.
[Third guy] LOL
[Fourth guy] Oh man, I was just going to post that exact same idea.  Great minds think alike.
[Fifth guy] Me too.
[First guy] LOL
[Sixth guy] It is a good idea, but I think it would be better if you added {stuff}
[Fourth guy] You are absolutely right, that would be better.
[First guy]  Why didn't I think of that?  You rock, 6th Guy.

Add another 3 pages of guys 1 through 19 all agreeing with each other.    :p

Besides, argument threads aren't all bad.  Sometimes there is some good stuff in them, even if there is also some not so good stuff in them.  You can't find a pearl without digging through a lot of stinky, slimy oysters.

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by Draxxalon:
<STRONG>There actually is an intelligent discussion going on
</STRONG>

 

quote:Originally posted by qalnor:
Come on, the gritty realism of city life in the bad part of town!
We could even have dwarvish stds, and gang violence, and a dwarvish noble known as a Pimpmeister, who would be the equivalent of House Ber/Fer/Guilds, except for prostitutes!

[ November 04, 2006: Message edited by: Capntastic ]

[qalnor]

Hence the suggestion that you not focus on the first posts in the thread, and instead focus on the more recent posts.

What was said was said, if you have something to add to it I'm not going to tell you not to, but if you're just going to take a shit in the thread because you can't bother to read past the first 20 posts then you can go fuck yourself.

[Capntastic]

quote:Originally posted by qalnor:
<STRONG>if you're just going to take a shit in the thread because you can't bother to read past the first 20 posts then you can go fuck yourself.</STRONG>

Well aren't you a soothing voice of reason <3

ANYWAYS:

My inputs on the matter are simple:  There's no reason for dwarves to be taking time off from work to have sex, as it hinders game play and is pointless.   If they do it on their breaks, then fine.  

I don't care about prostitution, but nothing should keep them from destroying nature in the name of treasure.

[Rooster]

please read this:

Before you post something qalnor think twice (or at least try!). THIS is the most stupid suggestion i've ever seen!

besides dwarf don't have sex. here is a small story to help you imagine what happens in your fortress:

A:honey i'm going to bed! do you want to come?
B:I'll finish my job first.
A:well ok then

---

A:hey honey what is this thing in our bed?
B:i think it is the baby
A:from where did it came from?
B:i don't know it just came out
A:from a hole in the ground?
B:i quess so

---

B: LETS ADOPT IT!
A:as you wish honey
A(thinks):I didn't know that i have ever had sex! anyway im going to drink for my new baby!

[DimmurWyrd]

This topic is too fun to stay out of so I figure I could throw some stuff in at least as worthy of reading as some other replies have been lol.

First I'd like to say as to the moral/religious aspect of sexuality... I am pretty sure King Jimmy's translators were just all really old dudes who were jealous cuz they can't get it up no more and figured nobody else should neither... (wasn't one of Gods commands to go out and multiply?)

As far as prostitutes in DF goes... in the classic sense of prostitution, I'd say no real good reason for it since basic nescessities of life are more or less free in DF so there's no overriding life sustaining reasoning going on to enforce that lifestyle... as for extra-marital sex and affairs and all that fun stuff I think it's probably VERY likely... in fact I think it would be far more likely than actual marraige in a society of workaholics like these dwarves... Or workalcoholics I should say since they do seem to return to a more normal work prioritization when the booze runs out lol... also IF there ever became such a thing as prostitution (and I would suggest it be of the more respectable sort found in better works of fiction rather than the seedy just because seedy and dwarf don't mix (I mean all these vastly wealthy dwarves paying for a dirty street whore in a back alley?? nah, can't see it.) but that's just my opinion... oh and I agree with keeping it gender neutral like the rest of DF hehe)

On the subject of nobles... kill em all and do without hehe but seriously... Maybe that should eventually be a long-term goal for the fortress is to get away from the "homeland" and declare independance, hang all the nobles (drown, burn, or steam em if you prefer) and then setup a governing body of your own... Determine your basic structure (democratic, fascist, socialist, anarchist, or whatever) then elect leaders (if any) probably just use a simple tag system like jobs to declare who leads since you declare all other jobs there's no breaking of the realism by assigning "nobles/leaders" the same way hehe. Each basic form of government would create it's own roster to fill and affect dwarf performance in varying ways.

Anyhow... interesting topic lol...

[qalnor]

quote:Originally posted by Rooster:
<STRONG>please read this:
</STRONG>

Why should I read your poor attempt at humor which, apart from the shitty humor, is a repetition of the same shit 10 other people posted at the beginning of the conversation.