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[Angela Christine]

Why could only female dwarves be prostitutes?  That's just wrong.  Are you saying my hardworking legendary miner, who has put her career ahead of her home life for years, doesn't deserve the chance for a little uncomplicated loving at the end of a hard day?  

Dwarfs don't seem to have any gender hang-ups.  Nobody blinks an eye at a female soldier having a baby in the middle of a patrol, picking it up, and going on with her job.  There is no maternity leave for pregnant or nursing mothers, unless you manually set them to "safe" jobs until the baby grows up, to prevent monster-assisted sudden infant death syndrome.  Nobody laughs at male dwarves who get assigned "girly" jobs.  There is no reason to think dwarves would have more of a problem with male than female sex trade workers.  If those little icons are telling the truth, apparently all the dwarves in my fortress have beards, so maybe they -are- like Pratchett's dwarves.  

However, I don't think introducing prostitution would be good, because of the size of the settlements.  Most fortresses are tiny villages of less than 200 people, and prostitution is more of a big city vice.  In a village you might get one or two doing it on the side part-time, for example if you have a busy tavern/inn the serving girl might also do a little slap and tickle between rounds of drinks -- but our fortresses don't have taverns or waitresses.  Even the nobles walk to the kitchen to fetch their own grub.  

Dedicated prostitutes usually fall into it through desperation, not for fun and profit.  The person is desperately poor, and restricted from making a living through other means because of age, gender, citizenship status, health, mental health, etc.  Since she can't get a regular job she turns to the only option that seems open to her.  *This isn't going to come up in DF.  There is plenty of work available, and no restrictions on who is allowed to take up what jobs.  Even if you are mean and disable everything but hauling, the dwarven community takes care of it's own.  Penniless dwarves can still drink water for free, sleep in barracks for free, and are allowed to eat the cheapest food available even if they can't afford to pay for it.  The poorest dwarves will work slowly and be prone to bad moods if they can't afford booze and private bedrooms, but they probably wouldn't be desperate enough to become sex trade workers.  Even blind, crippled, mentally ill dwarves are allowed to keep eating and drinking for free, as long as they don't turn violent.  

These villages are small enough that you don't really get a "bad side of town."  Starving dwarves occasionally mob incoming caravans to steal food, but individual dwarves never dedicate themselves to a life of crime.  You don't get dwarven pickpockets or dwarven burglars.  There are no dwarven drug dealers.  No muggers.  No beggars.  It isn't that dwarves are necessarily all happy, compassionate, law abiding people (although that is possible) it is just that you don't really get those problems as much in small scale societies.  The big capital cities might have a seedy underworld, but not the tiny outposts manned by a few dozen hardy pioneers.

[Nobody]

quote:Originally posted by Toady One:
<STRONG>It's funny how the last paragraph of your post merges with the quote in your signature...  it fills me with fear, in fact.</STRONG>

Heh, sorry Toady, didn't mean anything by it. And Angela makes a good point, but I regrettably bring up Deadwood; assuming that dwarves have such a sex drive and all that, prostitutes may emigrate to the fortress in order to escape their woes back home and service the workers. Of course, that depends on there being a market for prostitution in the dwarven fortress.

But I agree with equal gender prostitution; dwarves just don't appear to make that much of a distinction when it comes to prostitution.

In my opinion; I can't see dwarves doing this culturally. I just see them as being too focused on the glories of gold and metal and duty to really get too into vices. But, all things can change after all...

[Pesty13480]

quote:Originally posted by Nobody:
<STRONG>
But I agree with equal gender prostitution; dwarves just don't appear to make that much of a distinction when it comes to prostitution.

In my opinion; I can't see dwarves doing this culturally. I just see them as being too focused on the glories of gold and metal and duty to really get too into vices. But, all things can change after all...</STRONG>

Agreed on the equal opportunity prostitution, I don't see why a bored baroness wouldn't seek out novel ways to spend her time. Unless she specifically cared for her husband, which in the case of nobility just wouldn't happen very often at all, it would be quite within character for her to take on a lover.

And if Toady puts dynasties and families into the game, a cuckholded baron could make for some pretty chaotic and entertaining times in the happy little fortress.

As for the cultural bit, can you really not see how a genetic predisposition to boggling amounts of greed would result in every variety of vices (take well beyond the next two levels of contemptibility, at that)? I sincerely hope, for your sake, your imagination is not lacking that terribly. Furthermore, why wouldn't there be the odd black sheep in the culture, too?

Half of the problems in the real world come from greed, having too much, power, and occasionally combinations of the three. We manage to pull off all sorts of vice, and we, given the fantasy framework, aren't nearly as greedy, hoarding or power-loving as the dwarfs.

[Majestic7]

The sexual drive of dwarves could very well be different from humans. If they live for centuries, having offspring only rarely would serve to keep the population stable. Of course, in a moment of crisis, replacing fallen dwarves would be hard. Hey, we don't even know how long their childhood lasts and how long they actually live naturally.

Prostitution, however, has been used more as a solution for population booms than being the cause of it. I mean, historically, prostitution was accepted as a way for men to get their sexual urges satisfied without the risk of another mouth to feed in the family. The professionals themselves didn't have that many children - they had their own ways of lessening the chances of succesful pregnancy.  The classy brothels didn't offer only sex, but acted as gentlemen clubs for playing card, bathing and discussing politics.

You should as well remember that before the sexual liberation of women through modern contraception, all sexual acts always carried a heavy risk of pregnancy with them. That is the main reason why even the ladies of the elite were careful in their sexual relations. Getting pregnant is no fun, especially if it is clear the father of the child is not your husband.

All in all, I don't know if prostitution really fits in the dwarven society. One of the reasons is that it seems like a very gender-neutral society. Classic prostitution, of women serving the need of men, requires certain patriarchial society behind it. After all, the idea is to get the pleasure without the consequences. Likewise, if the dwarves live for centuries and reproduce only rarely, their sexual drive might be something entirely different from ours. Who knows, they might even just have a mating season every few years and otherwise be completely asexual.

However, I think the human societies in the world of Dwarf Fortress might well have prostitution in them. As a sidenote, I'm not saying that prostitution is good thing in any level here. I think on a personal level that it is a horrible human tragedy for those involved in such trade. However, it is still one of the oldest professions in our history and I see no reason resist adding it to the game on a moral basis. I mean, maybe if there's prostitution in the game, you could actually try to do something to stop it and help the women stuck in to it?

Aquillon, I like your suggestions and I loved Hidden Agenda. It is an ancient game that can be found from abandonware sites nowadays, to the interested. I think one way to put in consequences for players actions would be alter ego character in the fortress, a sort of local chief. It could even be a retired hero from the adventure mode - one legendary fighter doesn't really change the game balance that much. The actions chosen by the player, such as setting laws and annoying neighbours, might come down on the alter ego character personally. I can imagine elves sending a sniper to take out the evil treekiller instead of a full scale attack.

Social consequences as a whole are nice as well - if they are logical and seem realistic, like the rest of the game. Adding a moralizing aspect to the game would be really lame. I mean, often the ruthless and "evil" societies are much more efficient at doing what they are good at then the more caring ones. Things like health care, good nutrition and so on take away resources that a more uncaring society might be able to use for other purposes.

[ November 02, 2006: Message edited by: Majestic7 ]

[qalnor]

Just a quick point before I get to work, I have no real problem with making this equal oppurtunity, I didn't mean for that to be the foundation upon which the idea was built at all.

In fact, I do agree that it would be even better that way, since as a couple have pointed out, I am fond of the Pratchett conception of dwarf gender.

[w]

quote:Originally posted by Wahnsinniger:
<STRONG>While we're at it, lets add Nazi Dwarves.</STRONG>

Yes, because prostitutes are like Nazis.

Fantastic analogy you've got there.

Edit: I just want to be clear.  I'm actually not opposed to Nazi-ish dwarves (being in the game).

What I am opposed to is the implication that if we shouldn't have Nazi dwarves because of moral issues, then we shouldn't have prostitutes because of the same reason.

If anything in this thread has been offensive, it was that implication.

[ November 02, 2006: Message edited by: w ]

[Abyssal Squid]

quote:Originally posted by Mechanoid:
<STRONG>
What's the point of suggesting the red light district if you arn't going to outline the dwarven equivelant of bust size that's required for job assignment?</STRONG>

Two words: beard length.

[ November 02, 2006: Message edited by: Abyssal Squid ]

[qalnor]

quote:Originally posted by Abyssal Squid:
<STRONG>

Two words: beard length.

[ November 02, 2006: Message edited by: Abyssal Squid ]</STRONG>

Hey baby, are those real or are they extensions?

[Frogman]

Didn't Black & White have something like... a breeder job you could assign people to in order to make your population grow faster?

I don't like the "Oh load I'm broke I'll go have sex", but the breeder job would be kind of neat. So you could... y'know... make a fortress consisting only of the original dwarves and their offspring.

[Draxxalon]

quote:Originally posted by Frogman:
<STRONG>Didn't Black & White have something like... a breeder job you could assign people to in order to make your population grow faster?

I don't like the "Oh load I'm broke I'll go have sex", but the breeder job would be kind of neat. So you could... y'know... make a fortress consisting only of the original dwarves and their offspring.</STRONG>

Yeah, B&W did.

I'd love to run a fort soley off the original team, and their offspring... that sounds like it would be a pretty interesting fort.

(How would nobles work?  Random child born as nobility?)

[qalnor]

quote:Originally posted by Frogman:
<STRONG>Didn't Black & White have something like... a breeder job you could assign people to in order to make your population grow faster?

I don't like the "Oh load I'm broke I'll go have sex", but the breeder job would be kind of neat. So you could... y'know... make a fortress consisting only of the original dwarves and their offspring.</STRONG>

God that game was such an abomination and yet so fantastic at the same time.

But yeah, you could do that. Actually what was best was to just set 2 or 3 men to be breeders, and they'd fuck the whole civilization.

Apart from those men, and a similar number of children, who represented the next generation of philanderers, you could sacrifice all the men and maintain maximimum baby production.  AKA infinite free 'mana' or whatever the game called it.

Personally I do think it would be nice if some day you could could on sexual reproduction as the means for population growth, rather than immigration.

But Toady said some things that imply such a thing is not in the forseeable future, sadly.

[qalnor]

quote:Originally posted by Draxxalon:
<STRONG>How would nobles work?  Random child born as nobility?</STRONG>

Well, it could vary.

Well the guild dwarves could be nominated by their guilds.

Other positions might be appointed by the mayor, who might in turn be elected by the dwarves.

In fact, there's nothing even to say that all the positions would need to be permanent or hereditary. Indeed, there are only a few of the positions which are truly 'noble'.

For the truly noble positions, perhaps you could consider the 7 original dwarves the 7 noble families, and you could populate the noble lines from high points on the hereditary chain.

Perhaps the first borns of each of the dwarves, as well as the original dwarves, as well as the first born grandchildren of the original dwarves (et cetera) would compirse the 'royal family'.

For purposes of original selection, it could perhaps be random or perhaps by election among the nobles, and afterwards the death of a titled noble would trigger his first born child to take over his position.

In the case of a line ending, you could go sideways and take the second son at the lowest possible step (ie the great great great grandsons brother, not the original son's brother).

This is all a bit complicated and I'm not actually sure it would add anything to the game except annoyance when one of your legendary dwarves stops working and starts nobling.

It may just be best to retain migration for the purpose of nobles, although I admit less appealing on an aesthetic level.

[Angela Christine]

I don't think 7 (or 8 if you count the metalcrafter as an original settler, since he hauls that darn anvil through the wilderness all on his own) dwarfs would be an adequate breeding population.  Especially if you get unlucky and have uneven gender distribution.  The situation would be particularly dire if you had only one or two female dwarves in your original group.  Within a few generations your fortress would be known as the home of a bunch of inbred hillbillies.

Nobility wouldn't be a problem for a long, long time.  Even if you lucked out and got 4 breeding pairs out of your original 8 dwarfs, it will take many years to get to the minimum 20 dwarfs you need to get the manager and sheriff.  

Most "nobles" could be promoted from within when the time comes.  Whoever has the highest combined weapons skills when you qualify for a sheriff becomes the sheriff.  Whoever has the highest combined carpentry skills could become the carpenter's guild representative when one is needed.  

Or some could be a sort of semi-retirement for crippled-but-healthy dwarves, they get moved out of active duty and into management and oversight, where their experience can be put to good use.  If a carpenter is basically healthy but is blind or missing a leg, he gets to be the carpenter's guild representative.  

Some jobs might go to the least skilled adult in the fortress. I like the idea of the bookkeeper having no skills at all, and getting the job because she was always bookish and kind of a wimp, not good at typically dwarfish activities like mining, masonry, or fighting.  

Some jobs might go to the oldest dwarf in the fortress, assuming that the game keeps track of dwarf age, because the mayor or governor is probably an elder of the clan, not a young buck.  This might mean that when the governor position becomes available the current mayor gets promoted to governor, and the next oldest dwarf becomes mayor.  Or it could be that only non-noble dwarves are considered when new noble jobs become available.  

Ideally the game might even tell you when you qualify for a new noble, and give you the option to promote whomever you choose.  If you don't fill the position with in a set time (a season?  a year?) then an immigrant shows up to take the job.

For the few real nobles (baron, count, duke, and queen) I like the idea of interlopers.  By the time you start getting them your fortress is accumulating wealth, power and influence in the region, and it just makes sense that the central government would want someone keeping an eye on you.

[Nobody]

Y'know, I take back everything bad I've said about this topic; this thing is turning into quite a debate and sounding board. I think this is the longest suggestion thread I've ever seen.

Anyway, Pesty, although I do raise an eyebrow at your implied insult to my imaginative capabilities, I must admit that I have severely underestimated the capabilities of dwarven vice. However, I think that we shouldn't make dwarves and humans exactly the same vice wise (Good lord I'm sounding like such a nerd), maybe the guys have their own vices and fetishes. Cave silk covered maidens crawling on treasure piles? Y'know, I don't care whether or not my imaginatin' abilities get mocked, I don't think I shall delve there.

Dynasties would be very interesting. I myself would heartily enjoy a fortress wherein two families struggle for economic dominance. The king surrounded on all sides by whispering, maneuvering, muttering house fer officials, while the proud military family of Grimjaw struggles to regain its honor after the unprecedented goblin siege that cost them so many in their family. And all the while, house rash quietly gains support among the common people, seeking to make a violent bid for power.

...Although that would quickly make doing anything in your fortress quite difficult. But it would be cool nonetheless.

Breeders? Hm. I would be uncomfortable tying that specifically to a job, but I must admit that that does fill a much needed hole. Decisions, decisions...

By the way, I'd personally like nobles attempting to seize power by taking as many roles as they could. It'd probably be bad for your dwarven fortress, but I think it would fit, especially when the dwarves go down the "über alles" path.

[Angela Christine]

We can deduce something of the dwarven sex drive and sexual behavior.

1.  Traditionally, only virgins can tame unicorns.

2.  Dwarfs can not tame unicorns.

Therefore, dwarven virgins must be very rare.