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[Shingo]

To quote Albert Einstein, if I may    

quote:A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.

I'll thank you to kindly stop criticizing my religion, and discontinuing your efforts to shift this conversation to my so-called "shitty morals." I'm rather disappointed that you immediately conclude that I oppose these items on the sole basis of my religious views. You have no knowledge as to my religion, so please do not paint a picture of me as a bible-toting nun, out to force her religious beliefs upon the world.

I'm sorry that I insulted your intelligence in the beginning. I'm sorry that I caused you to begin an increasingly hostile rant against me, in which you're trying to portray me as an idiot, because I didn't mean to do that to you. all I wished to do was voice my opinion that such features should not be included in Dwarf Fortress.

[ November 01, 2006: Message edited by: Shingo ]

[qalnor]

quote:Originally posted by Shingo:
<STRONG>To quote Albert Einstein, if I may  

I'll thank you to kindly stop criticizing my religion, and discontinuing your efforts to shift this conversation to my so-called "shitty morals." I'm rather disappointed that you immediately conclude that I oppose these items on the sole basis of my religious views. You have no knowledge as to my religion, so please do not paint a picture of me as a bible-toting nun, out to force her religious beliefs upon the world.

I'm sorry that I insulted your intelligence in the beginning. I'm sorry that I caused you to begin an increasingly hostile rant against me, in which you're trying to portray me as an idiot, because I didn't mean to do that to you, all I wished to do was voice my opinion that such features should not be included in Dwarf Fortress.

[ November 01, 2006: Message edited by: Shingo ]</STRONG>

More back pedaling, what you said was:

quote:Just... Wow. Why not let us have the ability to command our dwarves to "commit suicide" while you're at it? Or better yet... We could form "conspiracies" and pay a dwarf to secretly become a "mass murderer."

And now, sarcasm aside, I'm shocked. Shocked and dismayed that any fellow human being could display such lack of intelligence, so as to suggest that we insert abortion, prostitution, and a "Pimpmeister" noble into this game

Don't even try to act like you didn't really mean it, or that you were really secretly just trying to criticize the idea on reasoned grounds.

You attacked me on moral grounds, then you attacked it on an issue of 'timeliness' then finally you tried saying you were just trying to criticize the idea because you didn't personally like it.

And as far as your Einstein quote goes, that's all well and good, but the values you are holding as pure and virtuous are American-Christian values aka 'sex is so evil and we should never have to be exposed to it'.

PS you posted again, despite the fact that you don't want to waste your time arguing on the internet about such a trivial issue. Oh I remember now, you were just saying that to attack me on the popular 'KNOWING THINGS IS BAD' grounds.

[Draxxalon]

It's yet another idea, among hundreds, that may or may not ever show it's face in the game.  

It may (or may not) have morally objectional material (depending on your morals, upbringing, locale, and personal beliefs).   Prostitution is completely legal in parts of the modern world... and completely shunned in others.

It may (or may not) have a place in the world of DF, as decided by Toady.  It hasn't got a clear place in the modern (or historic) world.

The only thing that has been produced so far from this idea, is that you two are bickering like an old married couple over it.

Take it to PMs...

PLEASE!

[qalnor]

I certainly agree that it's up to Toady, and I wouldn't want to give any other impression.

And as far as bickering goes, I just take umbrage with being called an idiot because of my morals, and if that's out of line, well, I'm out of line.

[Thunderstick]

These are dwarves you're talking about. I really hoped you understood that.

[Gakidou]

Number one reason that there should be no explicit sex in Dwarf Fortress:

They are Dwarves. Seriously, eww.

---

That said, prostitution raises interesting moral questions regarding social and economic standings. Issues of "sin" aside, the main problem seems to be one of self determination. It seems clear to me that forcing someone to have sex would be rape. Are a person's rights still violated when they choose to enter the profession because it is the only way to earn enough money to survive? More difficult to say. I suppose that similar issues exist in the Noble/Peasant split. I don't consider sex necessarily distasteful, but I feel like I would prefer my Dwarves to spend their work hours doing something beneficial to the state of the fortress; they should be able to come to mutually acceptable agreements in their relationships without a bloody economy.

[ November 01, 2006: Message edited by: Gakidou ]

[Majestic7]

I don't know about prostitution, at least in the fortress mode - but adding more of a spin to the personal relationships between individual dwarves would be nice. I mean things like divorces, getting cheated on and cheated spouses whacking the offending dwarves with an axe. Things like that would add a whole new feeling of "real life" to the game, as long as I didn't happen too often.

[Wahnsinniger]

While we're at it, lets add Nazi Dwarves. Think how unifed your nation would be! You'd be the envy of all other Dwarven Kingdoms... at least until you invade them. All it would cost would be a randomly picked dwarf profession to be exterminated. I always thought Jewelers were a bit inferior anyway. Guess we'd get to build another type of Furnace too, eh?

What, no good? Are you offended? How dare you be offended by my ideas. My ideas are just as valid, nay, MORE valid than yours. Anyone who doesn't like this idea is just as bad as those Jewelers I just got rid of.

......

Moral Issues Aside (for which I personally DO take issue with this), if it causes this much controversy, its not worth adding to the game. It also adds no real gameplay value. "Look mom, my dorfs are getting abortions. Isn't this fun!", nor does it add any real depth to the game, because prostitutes and abortions are more of a footnote in society than any real mainstream part of it.

Besides, STDs and Abortions are just one MORE thing to kill dwarves off, and those can be all too numerous already. Prostitutes WOULD help increase the population I think, but only to marginal degree, meaning they're a relatively worthless profession.

Dwarfland Uber Alles!

[Cosmonot]

I have no real interest in getting deeply involved in the sex lives of the dwarves, and they don't seem to be the kind of creatures that would go for prostitution, thematically. There are a lot of other things that are more important to the gameplay or conceptually interesting, such as adding re-walling and implementing full-scale wars.

[Wahnsinniger]

Cosmonot is exactly right; dwarves WOULDN'T be the types that go to prostitutes. Except for unbridled hatrid for Elves, Dwarves are honorable, and would never induldge in prostitutes or such lewd activities, and neither would they have abortions, simply because they are honorable and they WOULD find moral objections to it. If and when DF has the ability to build Human Settlements, these sorts of things COULD exist, though they still shouldn't reasons I mentioned above. However, dwarves would never do such things. Whatever your (lack of) moral values are, dwarves have very strong moral values.

[Majestic7]

quote:Originally posted by Wahnsinniger:
<STRONG>While we're at it, lets add Nazi Dwarves. Think how unifed your nation would be! You'd be the envy of all other Dwarven Kingdoms... at least until you invade them. All it would cost would be a randomly picked dwarf profession to be exterminated. I always thought Jewelers were a bit inferior anyway. Guess we'd get to build another type of Furnace too, eh?
</STRONG>

I'm not really participant in this debate - but I just had to note that pulling the Hitler card is a very immature thing to do...
http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adnazium.html

[dav]

I now have a very disturbing image of a female dwarf in an Old West style corset and corkscrew curls, doing the can-can on a well rim to the entertainment of the dwarves hanging out in the meeting room (soldiers and small children).  It burns.

I'm not sure introducing things that are so controversial in real life is such a good idea.  And yes, I know skinning kittens to make sand bags is not exactly acceptable behavior, but it's not a real political issue, either.  

I'm very happy to expound on my personal views on prostitution, its origins, and why those origins don't fit in so well with a society where there are plenty of other roles for women.  (If you want to earn more money, stop hauling things and start pulling levers!)  I'm not going to lay out a whole argument, since people are pretty settled to their sides anyway.  

On an entirely different level, prostitution doesn't fit into my vision of dwarven society. There doesn't really seem to be a big sex drive.  Gold, yes.  Crafting clever traps, yes.  If this were to go in, I'd rather see it solely in human or mixed-race settlements.  And no way is the technology for abortion available before the technology to stitch up a wound or set a bone.

[Wahnsinniger]

Alright, Considering I didn't even want to post on this thread(and failed that miserably, mind you), this is my last post about all this.

The reason I played the "Hitler Card", was because adding it to the game would be a bad idea, just like adding the things mentioned on this thread would be a bad idea. I am neither associating Prostitutes and the other proposed ideas with Nazis, nor saying any part of the game is similiar to them. Thus I'm not using the "Hitler Card" as described on that webpage(nice page, you write it yourself?).

The reason I choose to use the "Hitler Card" is because the Nazi's are universally Hated, and as such would be a bad addition to this game, just as I believe adding prostitutes and such are a bad addition to this game.

So just as I should have not been a participant in this debate(failed that), so should you have(also failed that). And thank you for forcing me to defend myself so that I wasted another off-topic post.

Well, this was a waste of time. Time to play some Hidden:source.

[Majestic7]

quote:Originally posted by Wahnsinniger:
<STRONG>
The reason I choose to use the "Hitler Card" is because the Nazi's are universally Hated, and as such would be a bad addition to this game, just as I believe adding prostitutes and such are a bad addition to this game.
</STRONG>

This is exactly the "guilt by association" -fallacy linked to the Hitler card. I'm not taking sides in this discussion, I'm just against bad argumentation.

Especially since you CAN play Nazidwarves in the game as it is. You can call your Fortress Guards the SS, build an execution chamber using the magma and then march all your Jewelers towards a final solution.

I'm not sure if adding prostitution to the Dwarf Fortress would give anything worthwhile, but I find it strange to rank selling sex higher in the moral disgust standards than killing children. Like Dav said, dwarven society doesn't seem like the type to cause prostitution. That doesn't mean however, that the human societies in the game might not have it. Whether it should be implemented in the game or not - well, it is a pretty pointless debate. After all, it is just a minor detail and such things are bound to be added last.

[ November 01, 2006: Message edited by: Majestic7 ]

[qalnor]

"The reason I choose to use the "Hitler Card" is because the Nazi's are universally Hated, and as such would be a bad addition to this game, just as I believe adding prostitutes and such are a bad addition to this game."

And that is why you should never try using Hitler in a debate, because whereas Hitler is universally hated, prostitutes are not universally hated.

I, myself, am very fond of prostitutes and the comparison of them to Nazis is completely unfair, and is utterly ridiculous.

Furthermore, to be perfectly frank, I wouldn't have a problem with the idea of a nationalist fascist uprising among the dwarves.

I completely and totally reject the idea that because an idea is controversial it is somehow taboo for any artistic or humorous representation.

Furthermore, as has been mentioned -- repeatedly -- there is already a great deal of 'offensive' material in the game. You can drown or incinerate children, dwarves become horribly violent upon being slighted, dwarves who take on a fell mood murder other dwarves and make coats out of their skins, and sheriffs take it upon themselves to beat the living shit out of criminals.

The game is gritty and realistic in a great many ways, and to suggest that there is a lack of controversial material in the game is a flat lie.

I am not even trying to defend the quality of the idea. One or two people have made legitimate criticisms of the idea in this thread, and I haven't sought to address them, because I don't think they're wildly fallacious.

I don't agree with them, of course, because I continue to like this idea, having thought of it myself, but I respect their opinions.

I do not respect the opinions of the PC police and moralists in this thread who seem to think that everything should be sanitized of the slightest hint of sexuality.

Such opinions are the only morally repugnant thing in this thread.