Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[qalnor]

Create a chance to turn female dwarves who are unhappy about their salary into prostitutes.

Also, possibly an abortion clinic workshop.

[Shingo]

How about let's not and say we didn't.

[Ookpik]

This is officially the worst idea I've ever seen.

[qalnor]

Come on, the gritty realism of city life in the bad part of town!

We could even have dwarvish stds, and gang violence, and a dwarvish noble known as a Pimpmeister, who would be the equivalent of House Ber/Fer/Guilds, except for prostitutes!

[Pesty13480]

Oh, please.

You can butcher little kittens for and deliberately gouge out the eyes of children before decapitating them, and using their heads to bean their parents. Or 'fell moods' causing dwarves to rise up against their fellow cavern dwellers, slaughter them, and use their skin to make leathers that even Ilsa Koch would be proud of. Not to mention that the whole dwarven judicial model is centered around the beating of people who ought to be presumed innocent.

Prostitution would be the least of the sins you could find in this game, and I'm remarkably sickened by the lack of internal, logical consistency that some of you demonstrate here.

I'm all for the idea. Except for the abortion bit, unless you could use it in the kitchen.

[Shingo]

Just... Wow. Why not let us have the ability to command our dwarves to "commit suicide" while you're at it? Or better yet... We could form "conspiracies" and pay a dwarf to secretly become a "mass murderer."

And now, sarcasm aside, I'm shocked. Shocked and dismayed that any fellow human being could display such lack of intelligence, so as to suggest that we insert abortion, prostitution, and a "Pimpmeister" noble into this game.

[qalnor]

quote:Originally posted by Shingo:
And now, sarcasm aside, I'm shocked. Shocked and dismayed that any fellow human being could display such lack of intelligence, so as to suggest that we insert abortion, prostitution, and a "Pimpmeister" noble into this game.[/QB]

I'm a little 'shocked' that you confuse 'intelligence' with 'decency'. The latter being a generally subjective moral construct and the former having nothing to do with the subject of prostitution, abortion or pimpbles.

For the record, the dwarves do commit suicide on a regular basis, whenever they get sullen about not being able to find the dead puppy bones they needed to finish their priceless artifact.

You should really check your morals at the door if you want to comment intelligently on the subject of Dwarf Fortress, a game which, as Pesty mentioned, contains a vast array of wonderfully horrible things.

Or are you so delightfully American that in your mind 'blood, guts, death and puppyslaying GOOD sex BAD VERY BAD'?

Or maybe it's more complex than that. Maybe your reasoning is based on something firm and real, and not on your own absurd bias. I guess I'm just not smart enough to figure it out, eh Einstein?

[Shingo]

Since when has the butchering of domesticated animals, in order to procure food, as well as various other materials, been immoral? Butchery of pets, yes. Why? A dwarf has become attached to said pet, and would be saddened by "Fido's" death. But for you to butcher those livestock that are not pets, is merely for the livestock to serve it's purpose within the game. Perhaps if the butchery were merely for "sport" as one might say, and afterwards your butcher could be seen cackling and rubbing his hands togethor in glee, one could realistically call such an action wrong, or evil. And gouging out eyes? If /you/ want to go ahead and do that to children, and then throw their head at the parents.... Yes, that is indeed wrong. But it would require a rather large amount of Toady's time for him to specifically make code to prevent you from gouging out childrens eyes.

As for declaring that those people who support such ideas as these, at this stage in development, to be unintelligent? Yes. Petitioning Toady to work on putting in such unsavory things as prostution, etc... is identical to asking him to WASTE TIME, that he could be using to do MEANINGFUL bug fixes, additions, etc.

[ November 01, 2006: Message edited by: Shingo ]

[Pesty13480]

Adopt prostitution or don't, no big deal, but to pretend the game adheres to anything like a happy moral time is just an absurdity. I mean, for the love of God, your dwarves will butcher each other to make dwarf skin pants if the right mood strikes them.

Here's the question - would you ask Toady to remove the ability to attack children in the game? How about innocent merchants? Bit of hypocrisy there if yes to one and no to another. Or would you have him remove all the unsavory things in this game? In which case, I honestly hope he doesn't.

The game should be as realistic as possible while retaining as much fun as possible. It is not a generic fantasy land full of happy people living in harmony with each other and an economy based on hugs. If you want that, you probably haven't seen the other games Bay12 offers.

[qalnor]

I just wanted to add a comment on top of what Pesty said, because he pretty much summed it up pretty well.

But I did want to address the point about it being stupid to ask Toady to waste time on this now rather than on more important things.

There's one word to describe what you just said: backpedal.

You're not longer criticizing the idea, you're suddenly criticizing the timing of the idea. Not only that, but it is utterly absurd to criticize the timing of the issue when I said nothing about timing.

Read through the dev board, especially the bloat section, and you will find plenty of things that are wholly inappropriate at this time.

I certainly was not suggesting that Toady drop basic game functionality and head straight for the hookers, I am merely suggesting something which could add further depth to a game that is practically fucking about depth.

And I'll say it again, this is no innocent mistake, you're shifting your point because you've been cornered. You flamed me because of your shitty morality, and now you're looking for a convenient escape.

[Shingo]

You know what? Quite simply, I think it's stupid to petition for prostution and pimping. I realize that sounds blunt, and in some ways it's meant to. However, if you want to persist in your actions, by all means do so.

Just one other thing. You question why I changed my tactics? Because I hoped that by a different approach, I might be able to better illustrate my stance. Obviously my first approach hadn't so much as phased you, and I felt that I should try again, and so I did.

In reply to whether or not I would disallow attacks upon children and/or merchants? Certainly not. Hypocrisy, you say? I think not. Such attacks upon the helpless and the innocent, embody one of many possible evil actions, which when performed en masse will likely have an effect  upon your character, in future versions of the game. There's also the coding factor, that I mentioned before.
Why do I draw the line at prostition and/or abortion? For one thing, prostitution is shunned by the average society, especially those of medieval times. Therefore, it's highly unlikely that the nobles would allow it's practice to continue, within the confines of your fortress. Secondly, I just don't think that it contributes any meaningful aspect to the game, other than appealing to the sexual urges that you may or may not have. All in all, I don't think that that makes it a worthy addition.

[ November 01, 2006: Message edited by: Shingo ]

[Maximus]

Dwarven society seems to be quite gender-neutral (there's an equal chance of any position, including nobility, to be filled by a male or female) -- so female-only prostitution doesn't necessarily hold water.

Speaking of holding water, a bit of gritty reality the game could use is latrines.

[qalnor]

quote:Originally posted by Shingo:
<STRONG>You know what? Quite simply, I think it's stupid to petition for prostution and pimping. I realize that sounds blunt, and in some ways it's meant to. However, if you want to persist in your actions, by all means do so.</STRONG>

You keep changing your mind about what you think is upsetting you. First it was stupid because it was immoral, then it was stupid because it was untimely, and now it's stupid because you just don't like the idea.

And my actions? I didn't realize words represented actions.

quote:Just one other thing. You question why I changed my tactics? Because I hoped that by a different approach, I might be able to better illustrate my stance. Obviously my first approach hadn't so much as phased you, and I felt that I should try again, and so I did.

You didn't change your tactics, you changed your position. There is a difference. Furthermore, I wasn't questioning your change, I was pointing it out because it was a flaw.

quote:In reply to whether or not I would disallow attacks upon children and/or merchants? Certainly not. Hypocrisy, you say? I think not. Such attacks upon the helpless and the innocent, embody one of many possible evil actions, which when performed en masse will likely have an effect  upon your character, in future versions of the game. There's also the coding factor, that I mentioned before.

This is all nonsense. What about when dwarves decide to go on a kill crazy rampage, killing puppies and children wherever they go because they stubbed their toe?

Your moralizing is ridiculous, and hypocritical.

quote:Why do I draw the line at prostition and/or abortion? For one thing, prostitution is shunned by the average society, especially those of medieval times. Therefore, it's highly unlikely that the nobles would allow it's practice to continue, within the confines of your fortress.

This is just flat out wrong and stupid. Again, this is you applying your morals to reality and assuming that they're relevant because you happen to think they're right.

Well you're not right. Historically, and in medieval times, prostitution was accepted because of its convenience. A quick glance at wikipedia reveals:

During the Middle Ages prostitution was commonly found in urban contexts. Although all forms of sexual activity outside of marriage were regarded as sinful by the Roman Catholic Church, prostitution was tolerated because it was held to prevent the greater evils of rape, sodomy, and masturbation (MCCall, 1979). Augustine of Hippo held that prostitution was a necessary evil: just as a well-ordered palace needed a good sewer, so a well-ordered city needed brothels (Aquinas, Summa Theologica).

quote:Secondly, I just don't think that it contributes any meaningful aspect to the game, other than appealing to the sexual urges that you may or may not have. All in all, I don't think that that makes it a worthy addition.

Humor and realism, the same reason as for everything else.

[Shingo]

I admit, I did not take the time to go research prostitution in the medieval ages.

I have better things to do than argue with you over whether or not prostitution should be added into this game.

Furthermore, I don't feel the need to pick over your posts in excruciating detail in order to mince words with you, and jump on each and every  mistake you happen to make.

And, to hopefully finalize things, I'm opposed to including these features in the game, and you are a proponent of doing so. We aren't going to convince each other of the correctness of our differing viewpoints. Therefore, I don't think we have anything meaningful left to contribute to this topic, and I suggest we leave it up to Toady to decide.

[ November 01, 2006: Message edited by: Shingo ]

[qalnor]

quote:Originally posted by Shingo:
<STRONG>I admit, I did not take the time to go research prostitution in the medieval ages.

I have better things to do than argue with you over whether or not prostitution should be added into this game.</STRONG>

Apparently you do not have better things to do, or this wouldn't be your fifth post on the subject.  

quote:Furthermore, I don't feel the need to pick over your posts in excruciating detail in order to mince words with you, and jump on each and every  mistake you happen to make.

No, you just feel the need to flame people because of your shitty morals.

Secondly, you haven't criticized my mistakes because I haven't made any.

quote:<STRONG>And, hopefully finalize things, I'm opposed to including these features in the game, and you are a proponent of doing so. We aren't going to convince each other of the correctness of our differing viewpoints. Therefore, I don't think we have anything meaningful left to contribute to this topic, and I suggest we leave it up to Toady to decide.</STRONG>

I'm not trying to convince you of the idea. I have two tasks:

1. To make sure that the Christian coalition, as represented by you, does not ridicule this fantastic idea without rebuttal.

2. To make you look like the idiot you tried, so ineloquently, to make me look like.