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[HatfieldCW]

I always kinda figured that was why not every tile yields stone or ore.  Crappy miners just beat the crap out of the rock until they get through it, but skilled miners are harvesting the mountain while they dig, so they leave useful fragments behind.

[Squirrelloid]

Wish there was a 'destroy non-economic non-ore stone' option...  Or destroy stone by type.  So legendary miners could be told *not* to leave rock behind...

[Dvergar]

Eventually I can forsee having to put up with much more refuse.  As in hauling out and disposing of ruble for each and every tile.

[Squirrelloid]

Eventually I can forsee having to put up with much more refuse.  As in hauling out and disposing of ruble for each and every tile.

I will not update to such a version unless doing so is made reasonable.  Ew.

[profit]

Eventually I can forsee having to put up with much more refuse.  As in hauling out and disposing of ruble for each and every tile.

I will not update to such a version unless doing so is made reasonable.  Ew.

Neither will I. My dwarfs spend eternities hauling anyhow... why add more to this mess...

To further explain...
1 miner makes stone faster than 250 dwarves can dump it.

WhyTF would we want to purposefully generate more crap from mining. It would be like someone in a desert asking for more sand... or giving someone drowning a glass of water.... Except it makes even less sense and adds less fun....

* can already hear the counter argument of "when minecarts .... blah blah..."   WHEN they are in I will consider trying a version with mine tailings. NOT UNTIL THEN.  For now it's abstraction or no way.

[Sunken]

Wait, this is the suggestions forum, right? Not the executive development decision forum?
Sheesh, but I do get tired of hearing suggestions shot down just because they wouldn't work in the current version.

Not that the mining tailings discussion hasn't been done to death and beyond in other threads...

[Dante]

I would imagine that the question of tile-scale would have to be dealt with before a SISO^* system was implemented.

Also, considering it currently takes a few Dwarf Hours to mine a tile and a few Dwarf Days to trek across the map to dump it, the question of time-scale might have to be looked at too.

So, I wouldn't really worry.



* Stone In, Stone Out

[profit]

I would imagine that the question of tile-scale would have to be dealt with before a SISO^* system was implemented.

Also, considering it currently takes a few Dwarf Hours to mine a tile and a few Dwarf Days to trek across the map to dump it, the question of time-scale might have to be looked at too.

So, I wouldn't really worry.



* Stone In, Stone Out

And time scale can never really be changed....

Dwarfs will always take days to walk across the fort, or caravans will basicly never come, seasons will take ages to change and nothing will happen other than your dwarfs milling about.

There can be no speedup or skip time button due to the simulations nature, and the fact that it is using everything every computer has just to try and run pathfinding and jobfinding... which it usually manages at about 2-8 frames per second in my forts...

Now if somehow pathfinding could be made 100 times more efficient, and jobfinding could be made 150-200 times more efficient... maybe there could be the ability to let dwarves run a little closer to realtime and use a speedup routine when they are just being dwarfy... 

LOL yeah...
I see that happening... 
Hope you like the timescale and dwarfs moving how they currently do in relation to it.

[Dvergar]

Sheesh, but I do get tired of hearing suggestions shot down just because they wouldn't work in the current version.

Yes....sheesh.... mining refuse would be implemented far into the future, improved hauling and slow mining are near #1 on the eternal suggestions page

[Starver]

Wish there was a 'destroy non-economic non-ore stone' option...  Or destroy stone by type.  So legendary miners could be told *not* to leave rock behind...

And/or sub-designation of specific areas to be dug out to particular high/low skilled dwarfs, or with the same skill-level cut-offs.  (New miner?  Train him on the hewing out the huge gabbro cavern while the legendary ones get assigned the gemstones.)

Regarding accurate SISO, it would of course rebalance the game drastically, but treating a tile's-worth of stone as a volume from which seven layers of raw stone can be removed (eight if it's a floor-removal one), each of which is capable of forming something like a stone table (imagine cut and divide both two sides down to get legs and a nice rectangular surface, if originally square, and of course block-cutting it beforehand would make that process tidier, but it would end up essentially occupying a tile's-worth of space) or multiple smaller items after processing would allow degrees of "useful product" and (if deemed something Toady wanted to do) spoil.  (Any difference from the nominal total being expelled as dust.  Normally below the cave-in level, for which I'm sure dwarfs have evolved anti-silicosis mechanisms so won't be adversely effected, but intensive mining far from ventilation might cause problems.  Maybe that's why you need expert miners, to make the job as un-messy as possible.)

But without some sort of rejigged hauling problem, you're still left with the fact the stone 'ought to' occupy a larger amount of space.  In a stricter system, mining should not leave slabs/spoil on the spot you've mined out, but shuffled to the rear (or up/down a shaft, assuming sevenths(/eighths) of a tile could reasonable be assumed to be portable up or down such stairs).  And after more than a couple of slabs have been propped up at the sides of the access tunnel (frexample) you'd need to send the next block, or quantity of waste material[1] back to another (adjacent or further back) tile for storage, until your miners, mining support workers or pit ponies (or conveyor-style mechanisms, should they be available) clear out more space adjacent to the space to allow more immediate digging.


But that's of course a great leap of change of functionality and distribution.  I'd not advocate it as a change.  Which is not to say it might not be workable, with a comprehensive-enough revamp.  (Playability and reality checks are largely independant entities, and I'm sure everyone has their own preferences as to what order they would place the point of balance.)





[1] I think I've previously classified it to four levels, which I shall recast for the above pondering as follows:

• Large rock chunks (in this case slabs), from which large items can be made (or essentially slab-sized blocks from which large items can be produced)
• Useful rocks, from which your classic rock mug, or several earrings, can be hewn.  (Could be worked into small blocks beforehand?)
• Spoil, much like gravel.  Useful as 'filler' for block-based walls, perhaps, but certainly consider using as part of roadmaking agragate.  (As an afterthought, extraction of gems might require the rock to be pulverised.)
• Dust.  Inconsiquential apart from choking hazard.

(Sandstones might actually give 'sand', at level 3.5, or you just assume that that's something that can be processed from the sandstone spoil.  In the way that limestone spoil is processable to quicklime by the right manufactury.)

[Dante]

[1] I think I've previously classified it to four levels, which I shall recast for the above pondering as follows:

• Large rock chunks (in this case slabs), from which large items can be made (or essentially slab-sized blocks from which large items can be produced)
• Useful rocks, from which your classic rock mug, or several earrings, can be hewn.  (Could be worked into small blocks beforehand?)
• Spoil, much like gravel.  Useful as 'filler' for block-based walls, perhaps, but certainly consider using as part of roadmaking agragate.  (As an afterthought, extraction of gems might require the rock to be pulverised.)
• Dust.  Inconsiquential apart from choking hazard.

(Sandstones might actually give 'sand', at level 3.5, or you just assume that that's something that can be processed from the sandstone spoil.  In the way that limestone spoil is processable to quicklime by the right manufactury.)

What you've said is very interesting. I'd prefer a (quasi-) solution as follows.

1. We currently have unskilled miners that break the laws of physics (by turning stone walls into nothingness).
2. We also have some physics breakage from the fact that a legendary miner can mine a passage and clamber past the rocks left behind as he goes, even though these rocks should be the same size as the passage.
3. I'd much rather see highly skilled miners break the laws of physics (because these guys are {a} less common and {b} pretty much superbeings).
4. So there could be three 'grades' of rock, as you suggested: large workable lumps, small workable lumps, and gravel/spoil.
5. The less skilled the miner, the lower the grade of rock they tend to produce. So novices make mainly spoil, with infrequent small lumps thrown in, whereas skilled miners produce mainly small lumps and sometimes entire large blocks, and legendary miners make just the large lumps.
6. Highly skilled, such as legendary, miners would not produce all the extra spoil and uselessness that should come from turning a tile into a rock. Less skilled miners would.
7. The justification for this could be handwaving about rock becoming "dust", maybe even with a few simple dust flows added in.

So in this way, we'd have legendary miners as more useful, producing less rock to be hauled (and large, multi-purpose rocks at that) whereas unskilled miners would become the useless ones, making a bunch of gravel and sometimes small, less-useful rocks, all of which has to be dragged out of the way. This would be a stark reversal of the current gameplay, and make legendary miners much more valuable.

[profit]

[1] I think I've previously classified it to four levels, which I shall recast for the above pondering as follows:

• Large rock chunks (in this case slabs), from which large items can be made (or essentially slab-sized blocks from which large items can be produced)
• Useful rocks, from which your classic rock mug, or several earrings, can be hewn.  (Could be worked into small blocks beforehand?)
• Spoil, much like gravel.  Useful as 'filler' for block-based walls, perhaps, but certainly consider using as part of roadmaking agragate.  (As an afterthought, extraction of gems might require the rock to be pulverised.)
• Dust.  Inconsiquential apart from choking hazard.

(Sandstones might actually give 'sand', at level 3.5, or you just assume that that's something that can be processed from the sandstone spoil.  In the way that limestone spoil is processable to quicklime by the right manufactury.)

What you've said is very interesting. I'd prefer a (quasi-) solution as follows.

1. We currently have unskilled miners that break the laws of physics (by turning stone walls into nothingness).
2. We also have some physics breakage from the fact that a legendary miner can mine a passage and clamber past the rocks left behind as he goes, even though these rocks should be the same size as the passage.
3. I'd much rather see highly skilled miners break the laws of physics (because these guys are {a} less common and {b} pretty much superbeings).
4. So there could be three 'grades' of rock, as you suggested: large workable lumps, small workable lumps, and gravel/spoil.
5. The less skilled the miner, the lower the grade of rock they tend to produce. So novices make mainly spoil, with infrequent small lumps thrown in, whereas skilled miners produce mainly small lumps and sometimes entire large blocks, and legendary miners make just the large lumps.
6. Highly skilled, such as legendary, miners would not produce all the extra spoil and uselessness that should come from turning a tile into a rock. Less skilled miners would.
7. The justification for this could be handwaving about rock becoming "dust", maybe even with a few simple dust flows added in.

So in this way, we'd have legendary miners as more useful, producing less rock to be hauled (and large, multi-purpose rocks at that) whereas unskilled miners would become the useless ones, making a bunch of gravel and sometimes small, less-useful rocks, all of which has to be dragged out of the way. This would be a stark reversal of the current gameplay, and make legendary miners much more valuable.

Or we could just add a "break stone designation" and make people who hate stone happy without spending a million hours of dev time.

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=27566.0

[Dante]

Yes, but "break stone" -> "break realism", in terms of conservation of mass. If the issue ever gets handled, I'd prefer something at least quasi-realistic. But playable, of course.

[INSANEcyborg]

Back to the part about separating masonry and construction, how about making a construction labor that's responsible for making anything built out of stone/wood/metal/glass blocks.  Other than weight, a blocks a block, if you can build something out of one type you should be able to use the other types.  Maybe make it responsible for removing constructions too.  Also, masons, carpenters and metal smiths will still be in charge of things made out of raw stone, logs, and bars. 

[HatfieldCW]

As others have mentioned, "realism" isn't a guiding principle here.  If you get excited about accurately representing the amount of stone in a tile, then you have to start thinking about why we can turn berries into a barrel of wine in a few hours, or why it takes a day to mine out a room, and three days to carry a sock from the weapon traps to the depot.

I like mining the way it is, and I'd rather see adjustments to how wood is harvested and how hauling jobs are conducted, as well as better distinctions between workshop jobs and construction jobs, which is where this thread started.