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[Pilsu]

Woodcrafting is even more useless since the only useful good that comes out of it - bolts - is already surpassed by bone bolts which come in better stacks.

Are bone shafts even remotely based on reality though? I'm not sure they should be in the game in the first place

[Starver]

<spoiler=Off-topic intro>s

If that wasn't actually ripped from something I wrote, it very closely follows my thoughts (slightly toned down from my usual level of verbosity) in a manner that I may have expressed already.  Thus I support this.  And if it turns out I'm just supporting myself, so be it.

[Bricks]

<spoiler=Off-topic intro>s

If that wasn't actually ripped from something I wrote, it very closely follows my thoughts (slightly toned down from my usual level of verbosity) in a manner that I may have expressed already.  Thus I support this.  And if it turns out I'm just supporting myself, so be it.

The basic idea I'm sure I've read somewhere else, and it may have been something you posted.  The content was original.

[HatfieldCW]

I think that part of the problem is that we go right from a chunk of rock the size of a dwarf, or a felled tree, to the finished product.  Just like "metal bars" are a little strance in that it takes one to make a staircase and three to make a barrel, the idea of going from a tree to a small stack of crossbow bolts is a little broken.  I'd like to see "logs" get converted into "lumber" or something, which can then be processed into goods.  A skilled sawyer would get more boards per log (depending on the quality of his large serrated disk, of course), and a skilled craftsdwarf/bowyer/fletcher would get more bolts per board foot.  Thus you wouldn't have to cut down eight trees to get a hundred bolts, and things like doors and beds and bins could be reworked to use the planks instead of the whole tree.

Metal bars could be considered "ingots", and a stack of them might be ten ingots, which would serve us well both for manufacturing and for melting metal objects.

Similarly, I'd like to see rock blocks be the standard unit of stone, instead of just a construction component, so that crafts and mugs and cabinets get built out of them.  Even gems and ore could be processed in such a way that an expert could get several good raw gems from the rock mass that the miners leave behind, or extract extra metal from ore.

[Dvergar]

I think that part of the problem is that we go right from a chunk of rock the size of a dwarf, or a felled tree, to the finished product. 

Absolutely agree, although in one of the DF talks (early on since I could listen through the whole thing) Tarn Adam's stated something along the lines of "I am hesitant about tying the tiles in DF to a real world number because then everything will have to make sense"  When asked why a tile can fit 1,000 dragons "as long as 999  of them are lying down".

Regardless, we will eventually need some point of reference so that the workshop operations start to make sense.

[Dante]

Seldom on any forum have I encountered such thoughtful, polite and agreeable discussion. My hat is tipped to each of you.

I think the main issue here is that Stone and Woodcrafting are all but dead professions.

It's always tricky to balance realism and gameplay. True, I've never used woodcrafting and only use stonecrafting if I have both an accidental mood-created legendary stonecrafter and a ton of extra stone. But both woodcrafting and stonecrafting are actual skills which you can imagine taking time to learn... unlike [my pet beef here] pump operating. How hard is it to turn a handle? How much finesse is required? How much more can you really learn? It can't be in terms of getting physically stronger, since that's dealt with in terms of attribute gain.

Alternatively move both wood and bone bolt/arrow production to the Bowyer, move Stone crafts like ring/amulets/Scepters/Idols to the Jewelers shop under the name "Lapidary Crafts", put Leather crafts at the Leather works under the Leather working profession, likewise cloth & silk crafts should go to the Clothier and its workshop.

This sort of thing, absolutely. You could easily make it so that the 'crafts' skills were divided into their appropriate materials-based areas, and perhaps retain "crafting" for what is effectively assembly - that is, (a) decorating things with materials, and (b) rock short swords.

I think that part of the problem is that we go right from a chunk of rock the size of a dwarf, or a felled tree, to the finished product. [...]

This also. As long as it takes one metal bar to either put studs in a boot, or make an enormous corkscrew trap component, then there will be difficulties with what makes a 'craft' (i.e. something fiddly) and what a larger skill, such as blacksmithing.
I think Toady suggested his plan might be to sort out some stack issues (with restacking), and then introduce smaller stacks of metal for crafting. But the problem still stands, for a lump of stone that becomes either an entire coffin, or a tiny crown.

It may be that eventually, there will have to that same old compromise between playability and logic - whether through adding functions to the less-used skills and making them more interesting, or merging them, or simply improving the interface so you can ignore them, or what.

_{... damn pump operating.} 

[Dvergar]

I think the main issue here is that Stone and Woodcrafting are all but dead professions.

I disagree wholehartedly, very often my fortress is run entirely off of stone crafts, a single stonecrafter with a stonecrafting skill of "proficient" can produce enough to buy out each and every caravan that comes to my fortress, decorative barrels aside. 

[Squirrelloid]

Masonry should effect construction and building (and give experience thereby), no workshop.

*Sculptor* should handle large rock carving jobs.  That's the (traditional) name for people who carve things out of blocks of rock. 

Stonecarver is a plausible name for stone craft items. This is a distinctly different occupation from carving large items.

Similarly, carpentry and woodworking are rather different professions, although woodworking shouldn't be enabled for dwarves...

Fletchers should make arrows/bolts, regardless of the material used.

Blacksmithing makes sense for metal furniture.  It does not make sense for metal crafts.

Metal crafts should be handled by a 'metalcaster' or 'jeweler' depending on the item.  (Historically, these would be referred to by their speciality - goldsmith, silversmith, etc...  But they were all effectively jewelers). So a goblet would be cast, while an earring would be made by a jeweler.  This should be the same skill that handles gem-setting (as setting gems is done by manipulating the metal of the setting).  Jewelers should use a jewelers shop even for metal work - small bits of metal hardly requires a forge.

[Dvergar]

Well, how firmly is DF based in realism, because...

1.  Isn't making solid rock furniture damn near impossible, or at least impractical due to weight
2.  Isn't making a rock anything out of a non-marble material impossible due to hardness/cleavage
3.  As stated above, masonry is building walls out of stone/cutting stone to blocks AND sculpting is creating statues of marble
4.  Could even the most experienced mason build a head-high structure out of rock straight from the quarry, without mortar?

[Bricks]

The discussion at hand is the realistic division of labors, not how realistic the labor actually is.

[Squirrelloid]

1.  Isn't making solid rock furniture damn near impossible, or at least impractical due to weight

A certain statue of Lincoln in Washington would like to disagree with you on the possibility of carving furniture, given he's seated in a massive chair.  Now, moving stone furniture would be annoying, but these are *dwarves*.

(I have seen functional stone tables and benches as well in places like parks).

2.  Isn't making a rock anything out of a non-marble material impossible due to hardness/cleavage

Well, cleavage is generally bad for carving things out of rock, but there are plenty of suitable rock materials.  Granite and Limestone both have long histories as sculpted material, and something like Obsidian is workable.  Many of the common rocks in DF don't have notable cleavage planes (because they aren't minerals, they're composites of minerals - only a pure mineral formation would tend to have nice cleavage planes), so i don't see a problem allowing them.

3.  As stated above, masonry is building walls out of stone/cutting stone to blocks AND sculpting is creating statues of marble

Actually, masons don't make the blocks.  They're made by 'stonecutters' historically.  A sculptor is overqualified, but is more similar and 'stonecutter' would be a useless proliferation of skills - especially as blocks don't have quality (and the work could certainly be done by sculptors...).

[ScreamingDoom]

4.  Could even the most experienced mason build a head-high structure out of rock straight from the quarry, without mortar?

Considering that most stone-age human cultures have managed to do just that (and then some!) and have their structures stand for thousands of years, I'd say its well within the abilities of dwarves.

[Neruz]

4.  Could even the most experienced mason build a head-high structure out of rock straight from the quarry, without mortar?

Considering that most stone-age human cultures have managed to do just that (and then some!) and have their structures stand for thousands of years, I'd say its well within the abilities of dwarves.

See; Pyramids.

[Dvergar]

See; Pyramids.

I appologize, I meant a single rough uncut rock that is a byproduct of mining, I am not so sheltered as to have never seen a structure made of stone.   

[Squirrelloid]

See; Pyramids.

I appologize, I meant a single rough uncut rock that is a byproduct of mining, I am not so sheltered as to have never seen a structure made of stone.   

Dwarves are awesome enough to quarry while they mine, duh.