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[3]

I see what you're getting at. To be frank, I'm not entirely sure myself... I do remember getting extra moves (not just movement, attacks as well) in adventurer when playing as a faster creature, so my assumption is that getting extra attacks has something to do with speed. But it might be so that agility has such an effect on attack speed that being only "agile" gives you a significant advantage, say, average 1.75 attacks to each attack of a non-agile opponent.

Here's an idea: if someone goes and hits a demon (ie, one leading a gob civ) and checks the amount of times they get hit, we'll probably be able to figure this out. Demons have [CAN_LEARN] by default - civ leaders seem to always have great attributes - but only average speed.

[Deon]

It's really easy.

There's a "timescale" which consists of "ticks". Each creature spends a set amount of "ticks" to take an action. A creature with raw speed 600 performs everything at the same rate as a creature with raw speed 1000 and 4 levels of agility. Sadly movement and attacks are totally in the same category, it means you can't make a slow creature with fast arms or a fast runner with slow attacks.

[MrLobster]

No-stat werewolf has speed 400, faster than a Perfectly Agile dwarf.

[Grendus]

No-stat werewolf has speed 400, faster than a Perfectly Agile dwarf.

Stats go past super*race*enly, they just aren't shown. Morul's agility was somewhere in the mind 40's to 50's. However, I see your point, I look forward to actually fighting them.

I've also noticed that the early sieging races are pretty aggressive. I checked, the frogmen have access to my current fort, but they haven't shown up. I've only seen two kobold thieves. Kinda boring actually, I'm starting to really miss 45 orcs showing up the first season with housewarming presents orcinite steel ore.

[darkflagrance]

No-stat werewolf has speed 400, faster than a Perfectly Agile dwarf.

Stats go past super*race*enly, they just aren't shown. Morul's agility was somewhere in the mind 40's to 50's. However, I see your point, I look forward to actually fighting them.

I've also noticed that the early sieging races are pretty aggressive. I checked, the frogmen have access to my current fort, but they haven't shown up. I've only seen two kobold thieves. Kinda boring actually, I'm starting to really miss 45 orcs showing up the first season with housewarming presents orcinite steel ore.

I don't think you're completely correct on the continued attribute growth increases.

You're right on the fact that skill-ups do result in attribute gains over 5 (super-race-edly tough), but like Labor skill levels they have a cap.

[nil]

No-stat werewolf has speed 400, faster than a Perfectly Agile dwarf.

Um, right, yeah, I knew that. 

I've also noticed that the early sieging races are pretty aggressive. I checked, the frogmen have access to my current fort, but they haven't shown up. I've only seen two kobold thieves. Kinda boring actually, I'm starting to really miss 45 orcs showing up the first season with housewarming presents orcinite steel ore.

Yeah, I've noticed this too.  Next release has some triggers changes to the lizards, goblins, and elves (progress2/population2, progress2/population2,and population3/progress4/trade4 respectively) that should make years 2-5 a little more exciting.  Year 6+ should have plenty of action in both this release and the next.

[Grendus]

No-stat werewolf has speed 400, faster than a Perfectly Agile dwarf.

Stats go past super*race*enly, they just aren't shown. Morul's agility was somewhere in the mind 40's to 50's. However, I see your point, I look forward to actually fighting them.

I've also noticed that the early sieging races are pretty aggressive. I checked, the frogmen have access to my current fort, but they haven't shown up. I've only seen two kobold thieves. Kinda boring actually, I'm starting to really miss 45 orcs showing up the first season with housewarming presents orcinite steel ore.

I don't think you're completely correct on the continued attribute growth increases.

You're right on the fact that skill-ups do result in attribute gains over 5 (super-race-edly tough), but like Labor skill levels they have a cap.

Possibly. However, Morul healed wounds much faster than my own superdwarvenly tough champions, so the cap is at least well above the highest visible limit (which, granted, is much lower than skill levels). So a dwarf who's spent several years training will still almost always be faster than a base level werewolf.

Werewolf champions, however, are scary. I think the lack of armor weakens them a lot though, if the dwarf is so well trained that he's faster, in addition to heavy iron or steel armor, the werewolf is probably dead meat anyways. -1 damblock and leather armor leaves them pretty vulnerable. Looking forward to when they actually show, my last fort has a bug where it won't save so I had to start a new, rather boring, fort.

[MrLobster]

No-stat werewolf has speed 400, faster than a Perfectly Agile dwarf.

Um, right, yeah, I knew that. 

Sorry I switched into nitpicker mode there for a second.

[Grendus]

Just got ambushed by ogres. They drove off the traders, but my hammer/macedwarves using their training weapons (base quality silver and wooden weapons) drove them off without injuries. Helps that the map is heavy on carbon and iron, so they're decked out in steel, but the two years I've had to train them up makes them pretty lethal naked, much less armed and armored.

Still waiting to face the werewolves. I want to see what all the terror is about.

Edit: as a sidenote, you might be able to solve the low immigration problem by restricting the more powerful enemies from sieging in the summer. My experience from Dig Deeper is that they'll send their leaders early enough, and once you've killed a few local leaders or their king they greatly reduce the sieges. By the time population becomes a problem, you'll probably have already seen if not killed the leaders, so the dwarves will be able to get in and out safely.

Edit 2: I'll wait for the next update. This is painfully dull, froggies don't start sieging for years. After half a dozen forts, I haven't even seen a race as aggressive as the orcs, much less as powerful. Possibly with some more aggressive triggers, but right now I'm holding onto the old Dig Deeper habit of drafting every useless peasant dwarf so I'd have 30 legendary weapon users when the first 15 frogman siege shows up. Even the vanilla goblins start ambushing before that.

[Zruku]

So far have had my third lizard men siege in the second year. Dear god is this better than orcs, I had some sort of chance of killing them, thanks to the minotaur town that I put my fort right in the middle of I survived the first two. Third one I was able to hold them off with a few marksdwarves (lost one) and the roach hotel type defenses I have. I still have yet to be sieged by frogmen, oh well. I now have a shit ton of bones, gonna deliver the dead back to the lizard men via Bolt mail.

[Halconnen]

Possibly. However, Morul healed wounds much faster than my own superdwarvenly tough champions, so the cap is at least well above the highest visible limit (which, granted, is much lower than skill levels). So a dwarf who's spent several years training will still almost always be faster than a base level werewolf.

Werewolf champions, however, are scary. I think the lack of armor weakens them a lot though, if the dwarf is so well trained that he's faster, in addition to heavy iron or steel armor, the werewolf is probably dead meat anyways. -1 damblock and leather armor leaves them pretty vulnerable. Looking forward to when they actually show, my last fort has a bug where it won't save so I had to start a new, rather boring, fort.

I assume it's just some formulas that are capped, while others are not. The speed formula seems to be one such case from my experience. Any agility past perfectly agile does not increase the speed of a creature any further. I'm not sure where else agility factors in, but it might for example still increase dodge changes further even though speed is maxed.

Morul (and to some degree, Ironblood) is the best living example that Toughness and Strength seem to have no reasonable cap whatsoever.

[nil]

Edit: as a sidenote, you might be able to solve the low immigration problem by restricting the more powerful enemies from sieging in the summer. My experience from Dig Deeper is that they'll send their leaders early enough, and once you've killed a few local leaders or their king they greatly reduce the sieges. By the time population becomes a problem, you'll probably have already seen if not killed the leaders, so the dwarves will be able to get in and out safely.

This was good advice, thanks.  I've swapped the gnomes and dwarves, and since the winter's already a season in which most enemies don't siege it definitely helps.

Edit 2: I'll wait for the next update. This is painfully dull, froggies don't start sieging for years. After half a dozen forts, I haven't even seen a race as aggressive as the orcs, much less as powerful. Possibly with some more aggressive triggers, but right now I'm holding onto the old Dig Deeper habit of drafting every useless peasant dwarf so I'd have 30 legendary weapon users when the first 15 frogman siege shows up. Even the vanilla goblins start ambushing before that.

One thing I've learned doing this mod is that there's a lot of variation in how the triggers manifest.  Frogs have the quickest possible triggers, basically the same as orcs and lower than vanilla goblins.  But while I've played games where they show up very early, I've also played games where they take years like it did for you; it's hard to control.

That being said the next release (coming very soon honest!) is gonna have the first few enemies hit a lot faster, hopefully bringing back that old 0.9 feeling.  Together with armor for giants/ogres and totally revamped treants, the whole mod should (once again) be more challenging.

edit: (spoilered for HFS)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

By the way, has anyone opened a pit in this?  I did earlier, wasn't ready and walled it off.  However, my units screen now has a dead demon and a number of dead tentacle demons.  I strongly suspect they tangled with the insane treants there and got themselves killed.  The same treants almost got me killed when they kept demolishing my half-build walls.  Bastards don't eat or drink, so they're still around and probably will be indefinitely

[Vorago]

Last time I played was 0.9 so tried this out... and oh god the migrants, THE MIGRANTS!

Seriously, I have dwarves everywhere and I don't know what to do with them all, used to one migrant wave every 4 years between the sieges  <_<

Actually afraid all these dorfs will be a bigger problem than the sieges at this rate  =(

Awesome mod  =)

[nil]

So I have good news, bad news, and news that's good for people who like fun.  Good news is there's a new version!  It includes plate mail for enemies that should have it, some new wepons for the minotaurs, and a new approach to worldgen that helps to boost the populations of many of the enemy civilizations, which will translate to more attackers and, possibly, could help keep the progression of attackers in order.

The bad news is that I've become fairly sure that enemies won't use population triggers alone.  This means that the 1.1 release was pretty badly broken, and for that I appologize profusely--especially to those of you who all but identified this problem and were told that the slowness/absence of attacks was simply bad luck on their part.  Fortunately, upgrading to this new version will fix the problem; progress triggers don't require a map regeneration.

The good news for people who like fun is that this means I'm back to using mostly production triggers, which means enemy attacks will once again escalate very quickly.  There have been two changes that should help prevent players from getting too overwhelmed too early.  First, gnomes and dwarves have swapped active seasons.  Since winter is much quieter than the rest of the year, this will make easier to stay in contact with the mountainhomes (important for migrants, note that this does make it more likely you will experience the dreaded gnome siege).  Second, the two enemies players seem to be most caught off guard by, the werewolves and the treants, are now on trade progress triggers.  If you trade heavily, this can actually make them come quicker than production triggers, but it at least gives you some control over them.

Since DFFD seems to be a little iffy at the moment I've mirrored it here.

[darkflagrance]

The good news is that I now know why werewolves and giants didn't attack my last Relentless Assault Fort, though I've since modded in Giant Cave Spiders as the ultimate enemy.

The other good news is progress triggers should be modable for any currently active games without requiring a regen.