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[Andeerz]

I can't help but think that the philosopher's philosophical movement should be codified as a set of ETHICS tags.
As for dwarven divination, I imagine that, aside from stuff like entrails and palms, they could just sit in the deepest, darkest place they can find beneath the fortress and listen.

Wow.  That's a rather powerful and dwarfy (whatever that means) image, not to mention haunting.  I really like that idea, a philosopher meditating on the silence of the deep mines/caves, perhaps "hearing" messages from beyond that could never be heard without such silence...   oooOOOOoooo spoooooky!

[Odd!x]

While I have been reading the entire discworld series, and thus my thinking may be somewhat biased generally in a disc-ward direction, this idea that dwarven philosophers go down into the dark and listen sounds similar to the Knockermen discworldean dwarfs, who did such a dangerous job (finding and eliminating flammable gasses found far underground) that it spawned a sort of dwarven religion.

[Quatch]

While awesome, I think we are deviating from philosophy to theology.

What do people think is nessisary for toady to bring back the philosopher?

[Odd!x]

I think that theology and philosophy have some nascent facets that converge, no?

[Quatch]

And still go in different directions. There is plenty of room for weird priests developing weird religions, but I think the philosopher should be somehow functionally distinct.

[Odd!x]

There most certainly should be functional distinction between religion-oriented dwarfs and philosophical dwarves.  You'll find, if you read my post, that I was not arguing that.   Perhaps I should have been more clear;  It is a dwarfy thing to go down into dark places and do strange things, e.g. listening to the heartbeat of the stone and unravelling the philosophical quandaries of dwarfdom, and probably should somehow be worked into the game.

[Urist McKing]

Maybe a person in a certain school of thought would be more likely to be in a certain religion if they shared spheres.

[Bohandas]

Not to hijack my on thread but maybe the game could have and extra useless noble called the artist which instead of giving lectures focuses on creating crafts or objects of different quality by taking possession of diverse workshops from time to time. The difference between these and artifacts is that the artist creations not necessarily are of superb quality and they could have a positive/negative effect of dwarves that admire them. These pieces could even be traded or put in displays on several parts of the fort. Which will increase the "artist" happiness because of their exposure.<p>[ December 09, 2007: Message edited by: Zemat ]

That's a really good idea! That would be totally cool!!!

[Detoxicated]

I like the Ethics Tag idea.
The Philosopher should have a rhetorical skill. If it is high enough he can cause a dwarf to believe in his set of belief. Say you have a philosopher who says its good to eat sapient beings, if he manages to debate well enough with a dwarf he'd be converted to believe that it was okay to eat sapient beings (or if his personality is nasty he starts to kill the philosopher). Once you have converted the mayor to believe in said idea you can build school of thoughts, where the philosopher trains more philosophers to bring forward his beliefs. If a philosopher of one school has a strange mood, he adds another ETHICS tag change to the School of thought. If a normal person is struck by a philosophical mood, he becomes a philosopher and creates a new "thought" school, but you can boost this school of thought only if the mayor gets converted. This way you can change the beliefs of your fortress, and if your beliefs are too extreme, then you get the chance of creating your own kingdom of dwarves.

This would also be interesting to worldgen.

[Tinker Thinker]

C'est magnifique.

What I am imagining: Something to keep us occupied into the late game - a new way of causing !!!FUN!!! if you will.

On the one side - less fervent believers, the philosophical dwarves.
On the other side - more fervent believers, the religious dwarves.

Each listens to their Philosopher/Priest, shares, converts, fights, kills and dies for their cause. Every dwarf can belong to both, and each School of Thought or Religion can become dominant (and compatible ones (e.g. a warlike philosophy with a murderdeathvonkillingham god) can be dominant simultaneously. When fighting breaks out, loyalty resolves based on what's more important.

To give an idea of how complex (read: awesome) this could be, let's take some SIMPLE examples
Urist McMarxist
Religious Proclivities: Modest
Philosophical Proclitivities: Starting revolutions for Fun and Profit by Urist McMarxist
Religion: Murder (advocates killing of sentient beings, conquest, etc.)
Philosophy: Commie!

Urist McHippie
Religious Proclivities: Strong
Philsophical Proclivities: Moderate
Religion: Rainbows
Philosophy: Communism.

Urist McBornAgain
Religious Proclivities: DOWN WITH ALL HEATHENS
Philosophical Proclivities: Does Not Think For Himself
Religion: Volcanoes
Philosophy: Capitalism.

So, a religious conflict breaks out between the god of murder and the god of volcanoes (against all odds), obviously McMarxist and McBornAgain are on opposite sides of the battlefield, but where will McHippie go? He'll support his communist brethren in the religious war even though it goes against his own beliefs for the sake of some advantage.

When multiple conflicts start happening, their preference for Religion or Philosophy will determine which side they will stick to, to avoid an unending loyalty cascade, such as the possibility of being compelled to assault yourself from your other side. (e.g. the first one will support his communist ideals over his murdergod, while the latter two will go with their gods rather than their philosophies, whenever these have conflicting purposes)

Imagine, if you will, a tantrum spiral that serves a purpose.

[Bohandas]

Sounds cool.

[Thundercraft]

There should be a storyteller noble.

You'd be able to query him, and he'd give you a random tale from history. For those of us that don't read the world logs.

Edit again, maybe this is what the philosopher could do?

The philosopher could hold gatherings where he would tell the (sequential, unlike engravings and artifacts) history of a thing (person, place, siege, artifact, whatever). This would give a new way to get at the worldgen history in game.

I think it could be neat if such a storyteller dwarf happens to tell the tale of the deeds of a certain dwarf, mentions a certain named weapon (or armor piece), or praises the completion of a certain artifact... and the dwarf in question happens to hear it (or hear about it). I think that should give said dwarf a big ego boost and a big happy thought. Even if it's only a relative or descendant, it should give some sort of happy thought and it should help toward counteracting the depression of the loss of said dwarf.

I mean, this aspect is so stereotypical of dwarves in fantasy fiction and games: Dwarves are real big on reciting history and storytelling. It's just so... dwarfy.

PS: Perhaps a storyteller dwarf would get automatically invited to parties (unless (s)he was already attending a party)? They'd provide entertainment and boost the atmosphere of a party. Also, I can't help but think they'd do something for dwarf children. After all, they'd want to pass these stories/history/moral lessons on to the next generation.

[Lungfish]

 I like that there is game functionality that depends on special dwarves, like a broker with the appraisal skill in order to know how much your fortress is worth, a book keeper with the highest level of precision to know for sure what you really have, and a manager in order to be able to set job orders.

I think one of the few DF Talks that I listened to briefly talked about additional political or economic models. Maybe the presence of a philosopher would allow for the adoption of different models, which could be chosen through the philosopher in the Nobles screen. Perhaps you could have more options depending on how much time the philosopher has spent performing the "debating" or "studying" task. This would also provide an awesome need for acquiring more books, which I also heard are being considered as a new trade good and industry. A philosopher with more books will be able to study more.

I also love the idea of a philosopher getting a sad thought from not having a lecture hall, enough chairs for his lecture hall depending on how many dwarves attend, which would depend on how many of them like intellectual discussions. Multiple philosophers could get into debates and occasional fights. A philosopher with a strange mood could write a book or just withdraw from society to become a Cynic or create an "artifact;" "Urist The Philosopher has invented: term limits. They menace with bands of regular elections"

[Granite26]

I think that dwarves should start off with a small set of legends(family histories?)  and only get new legends (to carve) when they are told about them.  Visiting bard/philoso/etc would be a good source.  Then, you don't need a player interface for the bard, you'll just start seeing new engravings.

[harborpirate]

It is a dwarfy thing to go down into dark places and do strange things, e.g. listening to the heartbeat of the stone and unravelling the philosophical quandaries of dwarfdom, and probably should somehow be worked into the game.

Three things I love in this thread so far:
The above post, and the idea it contains. What a great image of what it is to be a dwarf.
The idea that philosopher dwarves create [useless] koans.
The idea that engravings and other decorations should be driven off what the philosopher is currently saying in addition to portraying events.