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[Zemat]

I was reading suggestions for what the philosopher can do and I just wanted to give some suggestions to add the philosopher some functionality without changing too much his/her overall uselessness             :p.

Someone suggested that the philosopher could give lectures. In order to do that the philosopher could take on meeting halls or areas (which would come as welcomed change to neverending parties).

Now this could turn into two possible events:

- The philosopher becomes popular, increasing the amount of dwarves attending every new lecture which could either boost or degrade the overall level of happiness of attendees. Individual dwarven thoughts should reflect this. For example: "He lately attended a good/bad lecture which made him have good/bad reflections on life."

- The philosopher becomes unpopular, which eventually could produce one of two  possible effects: either s/he becomes a loner who turns int a stark raving mad or s/he gets lynched by a mob.

Additionally, a philosopher from time to time could go into a special mood (being a philosopher s/he should be allowed to go into several moods in his/her lifetime). This mood would be different than other moods though. The moods would only allow him to create special engravings wherever he chooses to (he having no skills for anything other than babbling or doodling on floors/walls). These engravings should have the same effect on approaching dwarves as his/her lectures have by either improving or degrading their respective happiness and also increasing the value of the specific room they are carved into (by a factor related to the philosopher popularity). The moods will not turn the philosopher into a master engraver though. And he will not take engraving jobs except those inspired by his own moods, which again, s/he will place anywhere s/he likes whenever designated or not for engraving.

The way in which a philosopher either increases or decreases the happiness of dwarves and his own popularity should be tied to his/her personality. This will encourage players to keep happy and preserve good philosophers and get rid of bad philosophers. Although philosophers make no demands or create mandates, their willingness to create special engravings and give lectures should be tied to how much the player pampers them with various room assignations and object possessions.

[ December 09, 2007: Message edited by: Zemat ]

[Zemat]

Not to hijack my on thread but maybe the game could have and extra useless noble called the artist which instead of giving lectures focuses on creating crafts or objects of different quality by taking possession of diverse workshops from time to time. The difference between these and artifacts is that the artist creations not necessarily are of superb quality and they could have a positive/negative effect of dwarves that admire them. These pieces could even be traded or put in displays on several parts of the fort. Which will increase the "artist" happiness because of their exposure.

[ December 09, 2007: Message edited by: Zemat ]

[Dwarmin]

I think the philosopher should also try to predict the future, and Dwarves who trust him act accordingly. Say he predicts a famine in the coming year, they would start hoarding food for themselves-at their own expense. Maybe the farmers would be loath to start work on what they see as a endeavor doomed to failure-thereby making the prophecy true!

[teabing]

can't we just accept that the dwarven philosopher, like many before him, is nothing but a useless lazy bum that poses as a noble to make a living?

[Zemat]

quote:Originally posted by Dwarmin:
<STRONG>I think the philosopher should also try to predict the future, and Dwarves who trust him act accordingly. Say he predicts a famine in the coming year, they would start hoarding food for themselves-at their own expense. Maybe the farmers would be loath to start work on what they see as a endeavor doomed to failure-thereby making the prophecy true!</STRONG>

That would more the job of a priest, seer, oracle or any kind of new noble with magical powers  . The only kind of predictions a philosopher could offer is the eventual downfall of dwarven civilization due to the abuse of alcohol (which would immediately trigger the tossing of said philosopher into a chasm).

[Zemat]

quote:Originally posted by teabing:
<STRONG>can't we just accept that the dwarven philosopher, like many before him, is nothing but a useless lazy bum that poses as a noble to make a living?</STRONG>

Yeah, but it would be more fun if any noble had some kind of random effect in the game, albeit small, which would either be detrimental or beneficial, other than the sole consumption of food and alcohol. That's the sole purpose of kids.

[ December 09, 2007: Message edited by: Zemat ]

[sphr]

lecture?? That's a philosopher! whose only job is to ... *think*... about the Question to the Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything. (We already know the Answer itself.)  He doesn't have to do anything "useful".

But would be nice if he can gain some (harmless) quirks.

philosopher: A dwarf in permanent strange mood?
(Maybe should stop him from doing the normal noble stuff of meddling with price of things and stuff.  That's so demeaningly mundane)

[Aquillion]

quote:Originally posted by teabing:
<STRONG>can't we just accept that the dwarven philosopher, like many before him, is nothing but a useless lazy bum that poses as a noble to make a living?</STRONG>

Philosophers served a purpose in the ancient world; it's just that, nowadays, most of those purposes have been taken over by more specific, rigorous areas of study.

Most of our intellectual disciplines were philosophies before they were hard sciences, though.  Modern theories of economics were put together by philosophers before there was a proper field of economic studies.  Modern psychology was nothing more than philosophizing, before it was understood well enough to become a field in its own right.  Modern systems of government were devised by philosophers.  Our modern system of rigorous science was originally devised by natural philosophers.  And so on.

The philosopher in Dwarf Fortress would, in my mind, be the noble whose job it is to think about how the fortress should be, in a broader sense.  The bookkeeper worries about whether or not you should have enough coins, but the philosopher worries about whether or not you should be using coins in the first place.

The concrete benefits of the philosopher could, in the long run, be to let you change the overall society of your fortress; think Social Engineering from Alpha Centauri.  They could let you change or eliminate your economic system, change or eliminate your standards of corporal punishment, devise new systems of government with advantages and disadvantages, and so on.

Of course, these changes could cause revolutions and counter-revolutions, with angry dwarves going berserk because they dislike the changes, or want more radical changes, or whatever.

[ December 09, 2007: Message edited by: Aquillion ]

[Karlito]

quote:Originally posted by sphr:
<STRONG>
Question to the Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything.
</STRONG>

What do you get when you multiply nine times six?
 

[ December 10, 2007: Message edited by: Karlito ]

[Entropy]

I would think the philosopher to be more like a classic philosopher - an educated dwarf who devotes his time to learning.  Calling people scientists only occurred relatively recently.

The philosopher noble could go about splitting his time between poking his nose into everything and teaching a gaggle of children.  Dwarven education: children split time between work, play, and learning from the old wise man.

Of course the alchemists workshop is perfect for him - he can go into moods and spend his time playing in there doing chemistry experiments.

[Quatch]

There should be a storyteller noble.

You'd be able to query him, and he'd give you a random tale from history. For those of us that don't read the world logs.

Edit again, maybe this is what the philosopher could do?

The philosopher could hold gatherings where he would tell the (sequential, unlike engravings and artifacts) history of a thing (person, place, siege, artifact, whatever). This would give a new way to get at the worldgen history in game.

Yay thread necro. Apologies if a better place was to be had.

[Sabre_Justice]

I'm imagining a dwarf Socrates now.

I'd like him to give random koans and musings on selection, like the Dungeon Master's pondering of fell beasts and treasure. As for lectures... that could go in well with the music and entertainment idea that's been floating around.

[HatfieldCW]

I like the idea of him being into science and education.  Rather than "moods" he should be struck by "fancies" that lead to him hanging out outside stargazing or sitting on the banks of a river for days on end, or grabbing some vermin and dissecting it.

[Quatch]

Ooh that's a good one. Will he lower the drawbridge during the siege so he can go stargaze?

[Euld]

Ooh that's a good one. Will he lower the drawbridge during the siege so he can go stargaze?

Of course!  Although, more seriously, maybe he would request a special observatory on the surface (minus a roof, or minus a full roof) to stargaze safely.