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Author Topic: Well, MoO 2 you too!  (Read 3538 times)

Kagus

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Well, MoO 2 you too!
« on: October 13, 2009, 06:34:16 pm »

So I've been playing a spot of Master of Orion II lately, since I felt the desire to try out a 4x game, well, that's pretty much the only one I've got.

I've just been mucking around at tutor-level difficulty, and haven't really done a whole lot so far...  I'm just at the beginning of my second game right now.

However, I do have one thing to say...   Psilons f'n ROCK.  Back when I was playing this thing ages ago I never gave much thought to the pansy little wimps.  But now, ohh man...

I started off as Psilons with the game tweaked to pre-warp tech levels.  I outresearched everyone else so quickly it wasn't even funny.  I was buzzing around in Doom Stars mounted with stellar converters while everyone else was still trying to figure out the complexities of pollution processing plants.

Everyone was buddying up with me (probably because of the ultra-low difficulty level, but piss off) and constantly requesting research treaties.  I told them where they could stick 'em (still maintained peaceful relations, of course).  Eventually I just nuked everyone with my unstoppable beams of death.  I tried to bring about a galaxy-wide peace, but that flopped massively (why do they always have to fight each other like that?  Twits).  And I realized that there's really not much point, since nobody else is going to attack the bleedin' Antarans, so I just figured "to hell with it" and burned everyone before annihilating the Antaran homeworld. 

Now I'm trying something out with the Bulrathi.  I intend to conquer and enslave the other races and make them do my bidding through superior ground forces.  Maybe later I'll try Darloks and set up a nice juicy spy network to steal stuff from everyone.


So, what's your favorite race?  Any tips for stickin' it to the AI?  How about preferred ship builds or custom race traits that suit your fancy?  Topic is now open for discussion.

E. Albright

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Re: Well, MoO 2 you too!
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2009, 09:31:52 pm »

An old fav of mine was to play Bulrathi (or other Hi-G +combat race), and use shuttles to steal everyone's ships. It's very satisfying to send waves of them after Antarian raiders early on, so you can succeed in catching an undamaged ship or two to scrap for advanced tech.
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LordBucket

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Re: Well, MoO 2 you too!
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2009, 12:47:49 am »


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tutor-level difficulty

Note that tutor level prevents some game mechanics from working. Custom races, for example. No need to play at that level. You can learn to play at average difficulty if you make it a small or medium galaxy and play against only a couple oponents.

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So, what's your favorite race?

I gave up playing pre-made races a long time ago. Always play a custom race.

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Psilons f'n ROCK

...well...sort of. They're probably the best of the default races because they have the best research and I think they're the only creative default race. They tend to be the race that kills me most often, anyway. Note that when playing a custom race, whichever race you pick as your portrait won't appear in game, so if they give you a lot of trouble by all means choose their portrait. But personally I always leave them in the game. Most of the time they'rll be the most challenging of your opponents because of all thetechnology they have, and because of their annoying habit of researching lots of shield tech.

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requesting research treaties.  I told them where they could stick 'em

Treaties aren't neccesarily a bad thing. Don't feel you always need to avoid them.

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custom race traits that suit your fancy?

First thing you need to decide is whether you're taking Creative or not. If you do, it will make your game massively easier, but if you grow accustomed to having it, it's diffficult to learn to play without it. Creative races never really need to worry about diplomacy, stealing technology, or scavenging it from captured ships. That's a lot of stuff that creative races just don't have to do, that non-creative races are dependant on. Note also that creative costs either 6 or 8 picks depending on which version of the game you're playing.

Subterranean is always good, pretty much no matter what. Since it increases the population on all of your planets, regardless of whether the planet is producing food, production or research, you'll be able to have more people doing it. As opposed to the basic farm/prodction/research bonuses which will be wasted on all planets doing anything else.

Bonus research is usually a safe choice. Bonus production can be ok, but often isn't worthwhile because in the early game a lot of your extra production is lost to pollution. Ground combat penalties are safe to take unless you're deliberately designing an entire strategy around capturing Antaren ships, which is an amusing novelty and everyone should probably try it once, but it's not really recommended for regular play. Defense penalties are usually ok to take so long as you plan to usually be on the offensive. Ideally your fleets will be big and strong enough that they'lltend to destroy things before they take much return fire. I recommend avoiding any spying modifiers. It's too expensive to really be worth taking as a bonus, but taking a spying penalty tends to hurt a lot because it means everyone in the galaxy will usually end up having your technology without needing to research it themselves. The income penalty is a reasonable choice. You'll definitely feel it, but it's a very playable handicap for the picks it gives you.

Diplomacy is useful at low and moderate difficulties. In impossible games, everyone will want to kill you. Consequently, if you're playing at impossible, you may as well always take repulsive. It's worth a lot of picks. If you're not planning on having any treaties of any kind, you may as well take repulsive regardless of difficulty. Trade treaties are very convenient to have, but since you'll eventually want to play at the harder difficulties anyway, you may as well get used to playing without them. Note that repulsive + the income penalty pick can be harsh, because repulsive prevents you from overcoming your lessened income through trade treaties. It's playable, but depending on your overall strategy, repulsive + ground combat penalty + defense penalty may be easier than repulsive + income penalty.

Telepathy + advanced technology is always good for a fast, fun game. Note that telepathy is kind of like creative, in that if you learn to depend on it, it's a bit difficult to play without it because telepathic races can fully auto-capture planets once they get cruiser-class ships. That means never having to worry about landing marines, xeno-relations buildings, or waiting for population to assimilate. The best part about telepathy though, is the speed at which captrued planets can put up defenses. A telapathic race can capture a highly developed planet, and maybe 3-5 turns later you can have a starbase, missile base and groudn batteries, meaning your fleet can go capture another planet without worrying about leftover ships taking it back. Telepaths are great for quickly absorbing entire empires and moving on. It's also fun to mind control starbases in combat and use them against the remaining fleet they were supposed to protect, though it tends to be more fun than useful. Note that if you take telepathy, you may as well take the ground combat penalty since you won't be doing much troop combat.

Democray sounds good on paper, but tends to be annoying because of the spying penalty, and the inability to eradicate planets. Unification governments are extremely functional, but tend to suffer in long games in large galaxies because the fixed morale bonus isn't as good as what can be acheived by late-game technology. Fuedal is a death sentence. The default government is usually best, but if you're playing in a small galaxy, or for whatever reason expect the game to be short and never get into late-game technology, unification can be a very worthwhile choice.

All in all, creative + telepath + subterranean is probably my favorite combination. If I don't want to play a telepath, I'll usually trade it for raw bonuses to research and/or production. Note though, that if you start out playing a creative telepathic race, there are a lot of game concepts that will be completely irrelevant to you, and so learning to play something else at a later date may be a nuisance.

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How about preferred ship builds

For early blitzs, groups of frigates loaded with as many 2x (NOT 5x) MIRV-missiles as you can fit on them is usually the best choice. A few MIRV merculite missiles in the early game will often allow you to capture an enemy capitol before they develop shields. Five or six missile frigates, even with only MIRV-nuclear warheads can take on an unshielded early game starbase without much trouble.

After the early game, heavy, shield piercing phasers are a popular choice. Get them fast, then rush around the universe blowing everyone up. Upgrade to heavy disruptors when you get the chance. Stop researching physics once maulers become available. They're very large, so you can't fit many on a ship, and their range penalties are atrocious. The worst of it is that as soon as you get them all your starbases will be upgraded to uses them, and your defenses will suffer. Don't research mauler technology until you've captured Orion for death rays or particle beams. Preferabely death rays. Of course, if you're not playing a Creative race, this is less of an issue because you can simply research something else at that level instead of maulers.

Shields aren't that important. Offense beats defense more often than defense beats offense. High tech starbase will fend off a lot of fleets, but you'll never win by playing a purely defensive game at the higher difficulty levels.

Put battle pods on everything you build. Put heavy armor on everything other than missiles frigates. For missiles frigates, just plan on losing them regularly and rebuilding them.

You don't always need to put the latest and greatest technology on your ships. As your tech increases, old technologues will become more efficient, and take up less space. 100 phasers is probably better than 10 disruptors. Notable exception: because of the way shields absorb damage, if your opponents have high shield technology, some weapons will be completely incapable of penetrating them no matter what. In these cases you'll want bigger damage weapons. Occassionally it may be worthwhile to build ships with plasma cannons in between, but in most cases, the best progression is MIRV-missiles --> phasers ---> disruptors --> win game. If the game is a long game, you'll need to continue from disruptors ---> death rays to overcome late-game planetary shields. As long as you keep any computer from getting clas X shields, you shouldn't need to worry about it though.

Finally, a lot of the late-game technology is novel, entertaining...and really not worthwhile. Cloaking devices, hard shields, fleetwide missle jamming, stellar converters, black hole generators, some of tha Antaren/Orion-only techs....fun stuff that sounds great, and may be useful in certain situations, but in actual practice it's usually best to simply stuff your ships full of basic weapons and blow stuff up.

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Any tips for stickin' it to the AI?

1) Expand fast, terraform early. Don't get stuck in the rut of "I have one planet and need to wait 10,000 turns to get tech." That will work on low difficulty settings. It won't work on hard or impossible.

2) Research. Gobs and gobs of research. I listed "expand" before reearch, but the reason you want lots of planets is so you can be doing lots of research.

3) Build large fleets. Sometimes you'll think you're winning, wiping out system after system with your five or six super-ships, when all of the sudden the computer will show up with a fleet of puny little ships with old tech that completely fill the screen from top to bottom three or four layers deep. That's usually when they win. In most cases, fleets > planetary defenses. So build fleets. Yes, build defenses too...but build fleets. Don't depend on five or six ships to beat the game for you no matter how much tech you have.

4) Random important late-game concept: warp interdictors + insta-warp teleporters between systems. This way you can have only one or two fleets that can instantly go anywhere rather than needing to defend everywhere.

Kagus

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Re: Well, MoO 2 you too!
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2009, 02:47:38 am »

Well durn it if you don't sound like you know what you're talking about...  Thank you for the experienced and highly detailed contribution.

Ever play theme races, or specialty ones?  For instance, a race that bases itself on making cash off of high food bonuses and the Expert Trader feat (cash never really struck me as an exceptionally useful commodity though, compared to raw labor)?  Or what about a race that has research penalties, but is capable of stealing the required tech thanks to an expansive network of supernaturally adept spies?  This could potentially free up some of your scientists to work in other areas.

What about lithovores or tolerant races, like the Silicoids?  How do you feel about the drain on labor, especially seeing as it frees up farmers to work on the labor force?

Ever tried mimicking a WH40k race?  I keep picturing space marines when I think of powered armor or the battleoids.

And just how far can you get with diplomacy, really?  Is it worth it for anything?

Speaking of which, my reason for denying all those research treaties was because I would gain nothing from it, and potentially lose quite a bit.  I was already leagues ahead of all other races in every conceivable research field, the only thing a research treaty would do would be to give them all the secrets I was working for.  I eagerly accepted trade agreements and non-aggression pacts though.


And as for custom races, what image do you generally choose?  Which ones do you find most aesthetically pleasing, and which ones do you pick just to keep the buggers from cropping up?

umiman

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Re: Well, MoO 2 you too!
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 03:01:12 am »

I love the Alkari... or whatever the bird race is called. I got really annoyed when they took them out of the sequel. Their ships were so ungodly powerful it wasn't funny and they had no drawbacks either, literally.

Custom races can definitely be exploited. The trait that lets you see the entire map is really unfair.

In my most humble and experienced opinion, I will say that this game has the most awesome planet destroyer in a game I've ever seen. Stellar converter goooo!!!!

Kagus

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Re: Well, MoO 2 you too!
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2009, 03:09:17 am »

Oh yeah, one other thing...  My most recent game (average difficulty, custom race, small galaxy, two AI players), I've just started sending scouts out to poke around.  First destination yielded a direct wormhole to the Silicoid's neighbor star (yikes), second jump was the neighbor star, third jump was Orion.

Whoopsies.


And I'm not really too sure how powerful omniscience is...  Sure, you can see everything, but what are you going to do about it?  Those points could have been put towards a more long-term bonus.  Besides, you're going to end up seeing most stuff eventually anyways...

But yeah, they're called Alkari.  Can't say I've played as them too much though.

LordBucket

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Re: Well, MoO 2 you too!
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 03:55:07 am »


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Thank you for the experienced and highly detailed contribution.

You're welcome. I've played MOO2 a lot.

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Ever play theme races, or specialty ones?

...I have...and it can be mildly entertaining, but it's kind of something I've done once or twice for each of a couple themes and then lost interest in the theme. In particular, high-income races can be playable simply by buying up all the production so you never have to build much. It's not as efficient as some other strategies, but it's totally functional. It's also amazingly convenient to be able to capture planets and simply buy starbases the next turn so you can immediately move your fleet onto the next target, rather than sitting around defending the planet. You can win with a Gnolam style "trade" race, though the bonus money picks are really expensive for what they give you. This kind of strategy is just as dependant on your research priorities as it is on your starting race. Also, like I mentioned in the previous post, playing with a race solely dedicated to capturing ships and in particular trying to capture an Antaren ship is worth doing...but it's not a reliable strategy. More something you do once to say you've done it.

It all kind of depends on which difficulty level you're playing at. There's a stage of the learning curve where you're playing "Hard" games all the time, where you win some and you lose some. At that stage, yes, thematic races can be a lot of fun. But eventually as you get better you get to the point where you can take 10 bad picks and not take any beneficial race picks at all, but still win hard games every single time. At that point you kind of have to play at the impossible level to have any fun, and at impossible, a lot of the strategies and racial designs that work at hard simply don't work anymore. At impossible there are really only a couple valid strategies, and even then and if you do everything right you're still not gaurunteed to win.

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Or what about a race that has research penalties, but is capable
of stealing the required tech thanks to an expansive network of supernaturally adept spies?

Like many strategies, it can be made to work on low and medium difficulties, but it just doesn't cut it in higher difficulty games. Spying just isn't reliable enough to depend on. Even with ridiculous numbers of spies with all sorts of bonuses, they just don't steal technology or perform sabotague often enough to compete with a simple expansion or research strategy. Plus, once you succesfully steal tech once, it seems like you succeed much less often with that race from then on. So it's usually only good for one or two technologues per race. And, for you to be able to steal tech at all, it has to be something that another race already has. The entire strategy is dependant on being behind the research curve, and playing "catch up" by stealing what others already have. It's very dangerous to let the copmuter get ahead of you on research. Finally, keep in mind that the picks you spend on improving your spy ability give you basically the same amount of effect as the first basic spy technologies. It's just not that big of a bopnus for the amount of pick syou have to spend.

The real value to stealing technology with spies is for games when you don't take creative. There are several very useful technologies that are mutually exclusive if you're not creative. For example, heavy armor and automated factories. You will always want both of these technologies, but if you're not creative you can't research them both on your own. So, you steal them from somebody else. But...even here, it's not really neccesary to do that, since whenever you capture an enemy planet, you'll tend to fill in the missing holes in your tech tree. And if you're not repulsive, you can always simply trade for the things you need, provided you're not uncreative. So the spies are nice, but not essential. I generally keep all my spies on defensive.

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Ever tried mimicking a WH40k race?

...no...but I suppose the Elerians could possibly pass visually as Eldar. Maybe give them omniscient and telepathic to be in-theme.

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And just how far can you get with diplomacy, really?  Is it worth it for anything?

It's useful while learning to play on low and medium difficulties. Trade treaties in particular are extremely convenient. It rapidly becomes useless on higher difficulties simply because if you're winning, everybody decides to kill you. And if you're not winning, you're going to lose regardless of what treaties you have.

Diplomacy is also useful if you're trying to win by a vote of the galactic council, but I find that it's far more practical to simply colonize or capture every planet you can to get enough population to win the vote on your own. Again...depends on the game difficulty. Either way, you'll need enough population to qualify, and subterranean will probably give you more votes than charismatic will.

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What about lithovores or tolerant races, like the Silicoids?  How do you feel about
the drain on labor, especially seeing as it frees up farmers to work on the labor force?

Lithovore was actually what I first started playing with when I first started making my own custom races oh-so-many-years ago. It's kind of convenient, but 10 picks is simply too expensive for what it gets you. And it's kind of like unification in that it doesn't have a lot of late-game staying power because even mid-game technology allows you to feed entire planets with only a couple farmers. And eventually you get a technology that converts production into food, so you don't need any farmers at all. 10 picks is an awful lot of points for something that becomes totally obsolete. And tolerant is basically the same thing: technology eventually completely eliminates pollution, so your 10 picks end up being wasted.

Lithovore and tolerant may be more or less functional for zerg rush type games in small galaxies with only a few opponents, but they simply don't have the staying power for large galaxies, or long games, and the amount of help they give you in the early game isn't really worthwhile on the more difficult game settings.

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my reason for denying all those research treaties was because I would gain nothing from it, and potentially lose quite a bit.

...well, I'm not saying treaties are important. But they're nothing to be scared of. In some circumstances they can greatly benefit you. But if you're not going to get anything from it and the other race will, then by all means don't agree to them.

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what image do you generally choose?

I usually choose either the Elerians, the insect guys, or the Trilarians. The Elerians are sexy. The insect guys tend to fit thematically with some of the race designs I like to play (I almost always take subterranean, for example) and the Trilarians are just really neat looking. Elegant. Very aesthetically pleasing. So one of those three.

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which ones do you pick just to keep the buggers from cropping up? 

I don't...but if I were, the Psilons would definitely be number one on my list. The vast majority of games, they're the only real threat. Probably number two would be the insect people. Every once in a while they manage to outproduce me.



LordBucket

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Re: Well, MoO 2 you too!
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2009, 04:10:57 am »


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My most recent game
(average difficulty, custom race, small galaxy, two AI players)

How'd you design your race?

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started sending scouts out

Scouts are good.

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First destination yielded a direct wormhole to the Silicoid's neighbor star (yikes),

Easy win.  Silicoids tend to be low tech, and don't usually research shields. Ideal for missile frigates. With the combined output of your homeworld plus theirs, the rest of the galaxy should fall pretty easily.

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And I'm not really too sure how powerful omniscience is...  Sure,
you can see everything, but what are you going to do about it?

Omniscience is nice, yes...useful, yes. It's a decent "hard" difficulty pick, but it's situational, and doesn't have much staying power. It stops being useful into the middle game because it doesn't tell you anything that you can't find out on your own.

But, for example...it can be convenient in a huge galaxy to know where Orion is at the start of the game so you can start building colonies and capturing systems in that direction. Or, let's say you're playing a pre-warp game, and you've just spent 30 turns building your first colony ship, and you won't be able to build anotehr one for a while...at it just so happens that there's an unoccupied ultra rich or gaia world just out of your flight range. So you build an outpost and go colonize it. Without omniscience, you wouldn't have known about it, and maybe you'd end up colonizing a barren world instead. Also there's a peroid of tech development that can sometimes happen where the computer is strong enough to destroy your colonies, but not your fleet. But, if you haven't resaerched warp interdictors yet, you're not always able to get your fleets where they need to be in time. Omniscience can sometimes give you the advance warning you need to move your fleets to defend your colonies.

So yes, omniscience can definitely be useful. But is it worth 4 picks? On hard difficulty, maybe. Not on impossible. It's too situational to rely on. On impossible, if you're having the problems that omniscience solves, you've probably already lost anyway.

Toady Two

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Re: Well, MoO 2 you too!
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2009, 07:42:16 am »

I like Klackon and other bug races for their awesome production and manufacturing skills.

But I'm playing moo3.
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Puck

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Re: Well, MoO 2 you too!
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2009, 08:30:35 am »

"Creative" and "Telepathic" are interesting picks, I'd definetly like to be that kind of alien if I were one.

But I started to deliberately not pick them, they take away so much of the gameplay.

Grendus

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Re: Well, MoO 2 you too!
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2009, 11:35:45 am »

Could someone post a link to this game? Now you've got me interested.
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Kagus

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Re: Well, MoO 2 you too!
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2009, 11:50:58 am »

How'd you design your race?

Creative, Subterranean, Large Home World (for that extra subterranean kick), Lucky, Ground Combat -10,  -0.5 Cash, Dictatorship.  Picked Gnolams as racial image, because I have always had and likely always will have a penchant for goblinoids.

Exactly how useful is "lucky" anyways?  Would a Rich Home World or other benefit be better than avoiding random galactic disasters (and the occasional Antaren fleet)?


I also rather enjoy the Trilarian graphics...  I think for my very first game I played as them.  That brings up another point, the "Aquatic" trait.  From what I've read it's a rather interesting choice, making the race treat certain world classes as a higher class Swamp and Tundra as Terran, Terran and Ocean as Gaia.

Now, if I understand that correctly, that means you start off with a Gaia home world, and that you can also forego the "Gaia transformation" technology, as you won't be gaining that much by it anyways.  This seems like a rather large boost, so I must be missing something.

Mind you, ocean worlds are really just cool...  But aesthetics alone generally don't build empires.  At least not fully functional ones.

Toady Two

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Re: Well, MoO 2 you too!
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2009, 12:56:03 pm »

Could someone post a link to this game? Now you've got me interested.

http://www.atari.com/us/games/moo2_battle_anta/pc

You can buy it at Atari.  :P If that's what you meant by "link".
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Grendus

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Re: Well, MoO 2 you too!
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2009, 01:19:08 pm »

That is indeed what I meant, thank you.
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A quick guide to surviving your first few days in CataclysmDDA:
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Kagus

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Re: Well, MoO 2 you too!
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2009, 03:58:04 pm »

Well, that was...  Odd.

I just finished the custom-race game.  At first I thought I was doomed to lose, because just after you mentioned how easy it would be to take over the silicon homeworld, my own home system was blockaded by a fleet of Silicoid cruisers.  With class I shields, which *I* didn't have yet.

After buying off the Silicoids and struggling to get my economy in order, I found out who the other contenders in the galaxy were.

Namely, the Psilons.

So here I am, with a bunch of little purple goons trying desperately to keep their pitiful little economy afloat, with only the starting planet under our control, and without a single ship in the sky.  And then I look over to the side and see the five Silicoid star systems (how the hell does the AI get so many colonies?  They're cheating, right?) crashing heads with the Psilon empire over who gets to lord it over the little guy.

I figure I'm pretty much F*ed.


Fast forward several space years, some titans, and a whole spoonload of planet-hopping.  The Silicoids have surrendered to me after I conquered their home planet, and I have used the industrial planets they left me to good use in pushing back the Psilons.  Who are, in fact, stuck on their home planet.

Only reason I'm not charging in to show them who's boss once and for all is because the twits have some utterly *insane* planetary defense systems that blow away my ships whenever I so much as look at them the wrong way.

So things are generally looking up, and I've been having a right ol' time bouncing around the skies as my scientists put their knobbly little noses to the grindstone in search of something that would blow away the Psilon defenses.

Cue Antaren attack, plus speech about how they're cleansing the galaxy.  Lose destroyer in ensuing battle.


It's around this time that I notice the Psilons are flitting around and planting colonies on some of the unclaimed systems (crazy buggers actually offered me one of these systems as part of a peace agreement.  Yeah, I *really* want a tiny radiated rock with a single colonist on it, and no defenses to keep me from taking it myself).  This being rather annoying, I send my fleet around and wipe out or conquer every last one of the pathetic things before finally turning around and blockading the Psilon home star.

It's at this point that I notice something a bit interesting.  The Psilon planet seems to be missing all those fancy-schmancy defense weapons it had before, and is now guarded only by a battlestation (which, although powerful, is not match for me).


Apparently my spies had blown up all their stuff while I was paying attention to building up some other colonies and dealing with the Antarens.

So I march in, obliterate the battlestation, and march my troops on the Psilon homeworld...  Which had about eight colonists for some reason.


And then the game ends.  I'd forgotten that you could win by conquering all the other races.  So, my first normal-difficulty game (without massive cheating, that is), and I win with a staggering 154 points.  As compared to the 899 I got on my tutor-level Psilon run.


I know that AI races hate each other vehemently, so they'll switch sides and use alliances to crush all the others, but how do they act when it's just the two of you left?  Will they be alright with sitting around and being left alive, or will they eventually try to stab you in the back while you're trying to sort out the Antarens?

Also, is it at all possible to board the Guardian?  Because that would be awesome.
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