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That's right

That is right

[NW_Kohaku]

The thing about the older idea I had - with nothing but stripes to designate jobs - is that it is really easy to see and recognize a few color stripes, even easier than seeing a small picture.

A pickaxe is easy to distinguish.  If I try to make a pretty icon for a spinning wheel, however, how easily can you distinguish that while leaning back?

I don't know about you guys, but I have to crank the zoom up just to be able to read the forums easily.

[Caldfir]

If you can think of a more stylized approach, I wouldn't be opposed to it.  Another idea I had was to steal sprites from a tileset, since there are some good 16x16 ones out there.  As long as the job indicators look different, it will probably work.  Whatever is easy to see and recognize would be best. 

Also: working on ladydwarves' clothing at the moment.  Here's a screen just using the men's clothing sprites from a couple days ago:

Spoiler: caution: nudist dwarves within (click to show/hide)

People usually start arguing when they see female dwarf pictures for some reason.  For those who prefer their women 'on the husky side' I'll write a separate xml that just uses the male sprites but without beards.  For whatever resaon this issue seems to divide people.

*shrug*

[orius]

People usually start arguing when they see female dwarf pictures for some reason.  For those who prefer their women 'on the husky side' I'll write a separate xml that just uses the male sprites but without beards.  For whatever resaon this issue seems to divide people.

*shrug*

Maybe because bearded dorf women are funny or something.  Dwarves just don't come off as very feminine for some reason. 

[NW_Kohaku]

Maybe, so that we can stop talking about nudity warnings, you could just put some sort of underwear on them that is part of an "always on" layer?  Just underwear and a bra for women and some heart boxers for the men, for a few giggles. 

There would still be the "Ken Doll" model if you go looking for it, yes, but it would still probably stop a few people from getting upset.

Those female dwarves have a stare that seems creepy...  It's probably the expressionless gaze with no irises in the eyes.


Also, could someone give a second opinion on the masonry icon?  Hammer or a lump of bricks?  Bricks would be just a bunch of rectangles. 

[Kaos]

OMG!! naked female dwarves!! fap fap fap 

Seriously, seeing the stair in that pic reminds me: will you be fixing the issue with stairs where they'd  always face the near side no mater the rotation?

About the female dwarves, right now I think you're using a fixed sprite: the males head clean shaved with the long beard and the females with long hair and no beard, some people mod their females and babies to have beards (I don't like it personally, at least for females, male babies with beards are hilarious) if you make it that the creature sprite actually shows the hair and beard features, it will work out for everybody, the ones that like their bearded females will simply gen worlds with them and it will simply show up on SS.

Also remember the basic rule for designing female outfits in a fantasy setting.

Probably you have noticed already but with the new dwarf high-res graphics the background looks pixelated and out of place, two different drawing styles mixed together.

[Rose]

Not currently possible, but doable in the future.

[NW_Kohaku]

Since there were those "always on" layers for things like the toenails of those goblins in the sprites I was looking at, so that there were never-colored features.  Just apply that to the underwear layer.  You could also just add a patch of area that could look like the underwear since that would always be covered, anyway.

Toady may well delete posts or threads with nudity, so taking a step to just prevent some possible conflicts in the future wouldn't really hurt.  It's a risk that doesn't need to be taken.

Also, please, no chainmail bikinis.  Please.  As awful as that whole trope is already, the only thing worse is involving bikinis with dwarves.

[Kaos]

I don't think that giving them fixed underwear is the best approach, there are undergarments in the game like loincloths and thongs, since there are no bras maybe make it so that if a female wears a loincloth/thong it also shows a corresponding bra.

To avoid issues with forum rules and the like make sure that in the images you post creatures are at least wearing a loincloth/thong.

[NW_Kohaku]

At the least, make it an option. 

I'm hardly a moral guardian who goes all Helen Lovejoy about the children, but I just plain don't want to see naked dwarves if I can at all help it.  (And the same goes for chainmail bikinis.)

[Caldfir]

Well, to be honest, the "naked" dwarves right now are already dilibirately politically correct.  A lot of video games opt to have stapled-on underwear, but I think this is a situation where that won't work, because naked dwarfs really are naked in dwarf fortress, and portraying them as not naked is... misleading.  I don't think I can justify more censorship than that which is present on dolls intended for little girls to play with. 

The comments on the spoiler images are mainly just there to inform the viewer, since, while it would be odd to be generically offended by such images (which would imply that the viewer is also universally offended by most dolls), there are naturally venues in which any amount of nudity would be inappropriate to view; for example at one's place of work;  I'm not offended by naked barbie/ken dolls, but I also wouldn't want to be caught holding one during a business meeting. 

So I'll draw what I'm drawing, and if somehow someone is disturbed by this, they may feel free to make the changes themself (unless Japa, Peterix, or Toady tell me I'm way off-base here).  Otherwise, just stop zooming in on naked dwarves in stonesense while at work I guess.

On the subject of the infamous "chainmail bikini", there is no need for concern.  I am aware there is a line to be treaded in a fantasy setting between making women look like women, and being vulgar.  For the most part, the female clothing is going to closely match the male counterpart, but scaled and repositioned to prevent impossible geometries.  The clothes will be stylish, but not sexualized. 

At the end of the day, 99% of my dwarves are draped in so many layers of cloaks and robes none of this will probably ever matter anyway. 

[ndkid]

I doubt this would please everyone, and apologies if it's been mentioned before, but what about the possibility of dwarven anatomy having such a massive amount of pubic hair that bits simply can't be seen through it? The hair could be shaded the same color as the rest of the dwarf's hair, and then there's no need for stapled-on-underwear, discussing dwarven genitals, or any pixilation or anything.

[dree12]

I doubt this would please everyone, and apologies if it's been mentioned before, but what about the possibility of dwarven anatomy having such a massive amount of pubic hair that bits simply can't be seen through it? The hair could be shaded the same color as the rest of the dwarf's hair, and then there's no need for stapled-on-underwear, discussing dwarven genitals, or any pixilation or anything.

I prefer the current method of barbie-dolling it, with no genitals visible at all. I don't see how anyone who is not offended by pubic hair would be offended at the current style.

[NW_Kohaku]

Also, if you are going to cover the "naughty bits" with pubic hair, then that would imply females would have to have a quite hairy chest...  Which may be a little unnerving in its own right.


Anyway, I still think that if you believe it necessary to warn people about not opening a spoiler when you might be at work, then it should be an option for people who actually play with this to have a means of non-nude dwarves.

Yes, most of the time they won't be nude, but then there's going to be that one guy who's at work whose boss walks in the instant that one dwarf decides it's time for a change of underwear.

I would also say that there is a certain thing to be said about the innate censorship this game already has - As I remember a few people mentioning before, I seriously, seriously doubt that things like babyfalls or throwing kittens down chutes to explode into chunks in the faces of dwarves, or simply butchering kittens and cleaning away the kitten skin to get a pristine kitten skull for a neat totem would be quite so widespread among the playerbase if they actually had to see those kittens being cut open. 

They like the idea of doing something against the cultural norms, but most people would probably get a little queasy were they to see how their laws kitten sausage actually gets made.

An option is a type of freedom, itself, for those who want to protect their no-censorship freedoms.

[Greiger]

I agree with the barbie dolling.  It works.   The pubic hair thing could work too, but I have a sneaking suspicion some folks would find that even more offensive than the barbie doll effect. I have memories of some old childhood friends being more bothered with the appearance of Ifrit than Shiva in the PS1 era FF games.  Though I can't say for certain whether that was not just the teenage male brain at work there.

That and I have a feeling it would make females look too much like cousin It.

Kohaku makes a good point too.   And making an optional underwear thing would sound like it would work, but something has to be the default.   And no matter what the default is it makes a bit of the decision.  For example I don't have a prefrence, (first of all I likely won't even see any dwarves in ss but regardless...) I wouldn't feel strongly enough either way to modify the xml to change it.  So probably the majority of users, especially ones that don't know how to change it, won't.  Whatever is the default will be what 'unmodded' stonesense would be, and anyone posting screenshots with that  changed from default would be seen differently because of it. 

If they changed from a  doll default to underwear, they could be seen as prudes, if they changed from underwear to doll they could be seen as sex addicts.     Having trouble putting what I mean into words, I hope my message gets across.

As an aside...people probably shouldn't be playing DF at work anyway...

[NW_Kohaku]

I don't think we need to worry about people being called "prudes" or "sex addicts" for how they set their own personal options. 

I mean, there is some derision that goes on between people who mod the game in any size, shape, or form, already, but really, it's not anyone's business if someone enjoys vanilla or a mod.  The same goes for anyone using ASCII vs. anything else, including Stonesense. 

We're already talking about a subset of a subset of a pretty small clique community, here.  How much intolerance do you think people can hold for someone who just doesn't want their own personal dwarves to go naked/clothed?

There are, of course, mods that put in the genitalia that the game currently lacks.  There was even that succubus/incubus mod that involved a race that attacked through lactation and sexual fluids, which really goes up to the absolute limits. 

Call me a prude if you must, but I'd still rather a "prude" option, even if I have to go adding it myself.


For perspective, though, for as far as anyone cares, I should say that I've never used or been particularly interested in using Stonesense before this.  In fact, I usually just stick with the default ASCII and hardly mod my game all that much, in spite of generally supporting modding. 

I only started adding graphics on a whim, and happened to be decent at it, and because of that got sucked up over here.

I only now show interest in Stonesense because I think these new things that are being added, which actually go beyond what anything else in the game has been able to do, and show a granularity of detail that the game has never shown before, is a truly exciting thing, because it actually opens up some of these details that have thus far been nothing but a useless bit of junk data squirreled away in some remote sub-sub-sub-menu of no relevance.

With that said, much like how kitten de-skulling would be rather gruesome if you had to watch it in person (provided you were a cat-lover), I'm not particularly keen on seeing nudist colony dwarves.  It's something of a turn-off to me that makes me pull back from the rest of the overwhelming positive I'm seeing out of taking the leap into trying this new thing I haven't tried before in using Stonesense.

Maybe I'm weird.  Actually, I know I'm weird... but anyway, there will be other people who react to this the same way I do, even if there are not all that many, and it's limiting.