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[dragdeler]

Sry I can allways be ragebaited when I'm working, if I weren't I'd have probably bitched about the lack of ease of use of some computer thingy, and not bothered to react. But as it stands we're like that experiment where people prefer to administer themselves electroshocks than be bored.

[Loud Whispers]

Sry I can allways be ragebaited when I'm working, if I weren't I'd have probably bitched about the lack of ease of use of some computer thingy, and not bothered to react. But as it stands we're like that experiment where people prefer to administer themselves electroshocks than be bored.

I'll never forget as a wee little kid going to a science museum there was a big old van de graff machine covered in hazard stripes saying "warning do not touch." Everyone dutifully obeyed the warning signs until I poked it, getting a sharp shock. This opens the floodgates of heaven and suddenly everyone in my class is prodding it and shocking themselves. Then someone discovered they could hold onto it and shock other people, creating human taser chains. The whole time one of the museum staff is watching this, presumably noting that the surest way to get kids to interact with a science exhibit is tell them to leave it alone

[brewer bob]

I poked it, getting a sharp shock. This opens the floodgates of heaven and suddenly everyone in my class is prodding it and shocking themselves. Then someone discovered they could hold onto it and shock other people, creating human taser chains.

Reminds of childhood when we realized that a electric fence meant for horses doesn't fry you but gives a little jolt. Didn't take long to make human chains and have some younger kid (who was unaware) being the last one in the chain.

[TD1]

Back atcha, dude.  You can take that "grandmother-to-be" shit and keep it to yourself.

The point being to differentiate between 'mother' and 'mother of the mother' in a logical fashion. But sure? I had a malicious purpose.

The point of the analogy is that if this was about lives, there's *plenty* you could do.  But you don't, because it isn't about lives.  I can only infer your honest opinion, but I think it's pretty obvious from your hardly-restrained contempt.

These are some... very broad assumptions you're making about me. How do you know what I do? If not human life, and being humane, what do you think my concern is? Without the question of life, I'm either an ideologue or a misogynist. I'm guessing you think me the latter, but please clarify.

I don't care what you convince yourself she "deserves", or what you think is "natural".  She's a human being and you have no right to force her to do anything.

Yea, I'm not forcing her to do anything. But I will force her to not do something reprehensible. It's two lives, by 29 weeks. I'm not sure where the cutoff for 'alive' is, but it's before then.

YOU won't sacrifice jack to save a life, why should she be forced to?  Withholding the use of one's body is NOT murder.

There are few things I wouldn't do to save a life. But yes, you're probably right. I wouldn't allow my body to be harvested of its organs while I'm alive. Though in extremis I'd probably make an exception for family. Particularly my progeny. Is... pregnancy comparable to organ-harvesting in your eyes?

'Withholding the use of one's body'...  'Withholding' would be taking the pill or having an early abortion. Again, I stress, 29 weeks. Whether it's murder at that point is a case of semantics - whatever it is, it's purely wrong to abort casually at that stage. The mother-to-be stressed in her messages how much she looked forward to fitting in her jeans again. Notably, however, the charge wasn't murder. See my original post for a summary.

And if the fetus WAS viable that far ahead of schedule, well, I'd place that death on the system which doesn't give pregnant people a choice in the use of their body.  She could have had the baby removed and everyone would be happy.  But she couldn't do that, could she?  Because of laws you're supporting.  This is the fault of YOUR position.

Yea, I'm not going to take the blame for what someone else in a completely different legal system did. Sorry.

Regardless, abortion was an option up to 20 weeks; at which point, and for reasons of basic humanity, its casual use was restricted.

I'll end with the briefest summary of my 'honest opinion' that I can manage: by 29 weeks, the right to body is a duality. The baby, as with the mother, deserves legal protection.

[TD1]

I poked it, getting a sharp shock. This opens the floodgates of heaven and suddenly everyone in my class is prodding it and shocking themselves. Then someone discovered they could hold onto it and shock other people, creating human taser chains.

Reminds of childhood when we realized that a electric fence meant for horses doesn't fry you but gives a little jolt. Didn't take long to make human chains and have some younger kid (who was unaware) being the last one in the chain.

Aha, my mum once walked a litter of Alsatian puppies past one of those fences. They ran under it, got jolted, became confused, and became a back-and-forth horde of chaos 

My poor mother had her work cut out getting them away ahahah.

[ChairmanPoo]

Would you be willing to be f****d in the a**e by an unspecified number (but >=2) of unsympathetic strangers to save a life?

For the purposes of this exercise the unsympathetic strangers are all Russian and all are named Vasily

[TD1]

Hrrrm, that depends.

Will any of them call me afterward?

[ChairmanPoo]

No, but you will be remunerated

The remuneration will consist of a sum which will vary depending on the size and number of unsympathetic strangers, how unsympathetic they are (as assessed by a neutral observer watching the footage) and their size. It will be paid entirely in transnistrian rubles.

[TD1]

Considering the contract thusly established, and including all footage created thereby, would I be afforded the same rights as a freelance porn actor?

Who would own the rights to the video?
Would I get accreditation?
Payment is all well and good, but the true currency of this world is reputation

[Rolan7]

Let me be clear: I'm happy to remain civil, but I have no interest in being nice about this issue.  As always it's presented as a matter of "murder", so the gloves were off from the start.

Still, I don't expect it to go much farther so I tried to say everything I needed to here.  TD1's welcome to respond, and I'll probably let that be it from me.

Back atcha, dude.  You can take that "grandmother-to-be" shit and keep it to yourself.

The point being to differentiate between 'mother' and 'mother of the mother' in a logical fashion. But sure? I had a malicious purpose.

The point of the analogy is that if this was about lives, there's *plenty* you could do.  But you don't, because it isn't about lives.  I can only infer your honest opinion, but I think it's pretty obvious from your hardly-restrained contempt.

These are some... very broad assumptions you're making about me. How do you know what I do? If not human life, and being humane, what do you think my concern is? Without the question of life, I'm either an ideologue or a misogynist. I'm guessing you think me the latter, but please clarify.

I don't care what you convince yourself she "deserves", or what you think is "natural".  She's a human being and you have no right to force her to do anything.

Yea, I'm not forcing her to do anything. But I will force her to not do something reprehensible. It's two lives, by 29 weeks. I'm not sure where the cutoff for 'alive' is, but it's before then.

YOU won't sacrifice jack to save a life, why should she be forced to?  Withholding the use of one's body is NOT murder.

There are few things I wouldn't do to save a life. But yes, you're probably right. I wouldn't allow my body to be harvested of its organs while I'm alive. Though in extremis I'd probably make an exception for family. Particularly my progeny. Is... pregnancy comparable to organ-harvesting in your eyes?

'Withholding the use of one's body'...  'Withholding' would be taking the pill or having an early abortion. Again, I stress, 29 weeks. Whether it's murder at that point is a case of semantics - whatever it is, it's purely wrong to abort casually at that stage. The mother-to-be stressed in her messages how much she looked forward to fitting in her jeans again. Notably, however, the charge wasn't murder. See my original post for a summary.

And if the fetus WAS viable that far ahead of schedule, well, I'd place that death on the system which doesn't give pregnant people a choice in the use of their body.  She could have had the baby removed and everyone would be happy.  But she couldn't do that, could she?  Because of laws you're supporting.  This is the fault of YOUR position.

Yea, I'm not going to take the blame for what someone else in a completely different legal system did. Sorry.

Regardless, abortion was an option up to 20 weeks; at which point, and for reasons of basic humanity, its casual use was restricted.

"Basic humanity" would preclude you from categorizing what happened here as "casual".

Maybe I got through to you a little, though, if your best defense of your beliefs is that you push them in a different jurisdiction.

I'll end with the briefest summary of my 'honest opinion' that I can manage: by 29 weeks, the right to body is a duality. The baby, as with the mother, deserves legal protection.

Even if you actually think the fetus is "a life", hell, you can even think it's a full human being in there... so what?

Pick 29 weeks, 1 week, 52 weeks, I don't care.
You say there's little you wouldn't sacrifice to save a life, but notably you wouldn't sacrifice your bodily autonomy like I suggested.  That's fine!  We establish a horrifying precedent if we expect everyone to do that, much less demand it.

What's perverse is expecting half the population to do so because of "nature" or "biological truths".  Screw that noise.  Nobody is "naturally" a slave, WE did that shit.

When someone is pregnant and doesn't want it, miscarriage tends to happen.  One way or another.  That's what's natural.  That's even tradition.  We've gotten better at stopping that course of events by FORCE and freshly invented doctrines.  We've also gotten better at inducing and easing the process thanks to medicine.

You seem to think pregnancy simply goes fine if it isn't deliberately stopped.  It does not.  But either way, I have a right to remove a foreign life (for sake of argument) from my body.  We all do.

If we're really going to force people to gestate fetuses, lets pick people who deserve it.  Murderers in prison.  Isn't that only fair?  You and I don't need to give up anything, and it can all happen far away where we don't need to think about it.
Or maybe you'd rather do that to teens who are only guilty of being manipulated by their parents.  I don't know where you stand.

Maybe... just maybe... none of that is okay.  Bodily autonomy is sacrosanct even to save a life, or multiple lives.  Anyone who truly disagreed would offer of themselves.  There's always a less palatable justification for forbidding abortion, one people are justifiably loathe to admit publicly.
I will abstain from guessing.  Perhaps, hopefully, it's subconscious.  That's where I was for a long time.

[ChairmanPoo]

Pick 29 weeks, 1 week, 52 weeks, I don't care

Well, most pregnancies last 37-42 weeks so 52 weeks is kind of a problem...

[Rolan7]

Partially I was being hyperbolic, but it also leads into my argument that we cannot in good conscience sacrifice bodily autonomy even to save people who have already been born.  Even many lives by violating one person.

*unless they consent, without coercion

[TD1]

Yea, it kinda feels to me like Rolan is fighting the argument they think I should be making, not what I actually said.

I'd recommend giving my posts a reread, but yea, I'm not gonna reiterate what I already said.

[dragdeler]

Two lives ruined over none, how isn't it needlessly vindictive to trial the daughter as an adult. Over cementary regulations.

[None]

I had an anxiety attack in the shower on Monday. The reason was stupid and inane and super mundane, but that didn't stop it from happening. Objectively I understood it was stupid and inane and super mundane, but that sure didn't stop my brain from spiraling down the shower drain.

I've been way anxious all week since then, and my medication does not seem to be effectively alleviating that. The pills look correct, so it doesn't seem like the pharmacy bungled something. There's nothing especially unusual or stressful on my mind, brain's just screaming. And screaming. And screaming.

And screaming.