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Author Topic: Things that made you sad today thread.  (Read 9751330 times)

EuchreJack

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120765 on: May 29, 2022, 09:27:21 pm »

I probably shouldn't get too preachy, since I drink like a fish
But smoking means society is going to have to pay for your future poor health. It might take 10 years off your life, but society's gonna pay for your health problems for 10 years leading up to that.
Smoking related healthcare takes up a fair amount of healthcare budget, but it is dwarfed by far by elderly care for the 'healthy' elderly.
It's just that the anti-smoking and healthy lifestyle lobby is much more vocal about the costs than the elderly care homes. And they tend to omit the excise taxes collected by the state on tobacco and alcohol. Not to mention the health benefits of stress reduction and entertainment.
My smoking habits are paying for the elderly care.
That is actually a very good point.

hector13

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120766 on: May 29, 2022, 09:35:05 pm »

Other than second hand smoke being as much of a health risk as being a smoker, sure.

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EuchreJack

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120767 on: May 29, 2022, 11:35:07 pm »

Other than second hand smoke being as much of a health risk as being a smoker, sure.
Also a good point

martinuzz

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120768 on: May 30, 2022, 03:50:29 am »

Other than second hand smoke being as much of a health risk as being a smoker, sure.
Second hand smoke poses some health risk for people that are in the same enclosed space without ventilation.
It is not 'as much of a health risk' but I cannot deny it poses some risk. I can accept and agree with non smoking policies in public (enclosed) spaces. If I had children I would take my smoke outdoors.

Fine dust from cars and industry pose a greater risk though. Riding your bicycle in a town or city with a lot of traffic poses more of a health risk than getting some second hand smoke on a pub terrace in a car-free downtown. Exercise isn't always healthy :p
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 03:53:52 am by martinuzz »
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120769 on: May 30, 2022, 04:50:13 am »

poof another 3 hours of sleep gone, if they organized to cost as much sleep as possible they could hardly do a better job as they allready are.

Another day going by without the mowing mafia being striken by penny sized meteorites.I don't enjoy exploring the different possibilities that could make them stop instead of sleeping. It's not some sick hobby of me. I actually prefer physical pain to sleep deprivation, if they let me pick i'd take a minute of beating with a stick everytime i need to get up an pee over this any day.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120770 on: May 30, 2022, 06:16:46 am »

Smoking related healthcare takes up a fair amount of healthcare budget, but it is dwarfed by far by elderly care for the 'healthy' elderly.
It's just that the anti-smoking and healthy lifestyle lobby is much more vocal about the costs than the elderly care homes. And they tend to omit the excise taxes collected by the state on tobacco and alcohol. Not to mention the health benefits of stress reduction and entertainment.
My smoking habits are paying for the elderly care.
When I was 4 years old some anti-smoking charity workers came into my primary school to teach about the hitherto relatively unknown dangers of second-hand smoking. The strategy was good - the adults that tended to quit smoking, usually did. The adults that did not, usually did not. But if you got their kids to annoy them everyday with puppy-dog eyes, you could flip that second category into non-smokers.
This chap gives a very lovely speech about a jazz musician who worked 20 years brass in the bars, who then went on to develop lung cancer despite never being a smoker himself. I agreed with him completely, yet I was a most difficult child who demanded evidence for everything and questioned everything, and without the cuteness of youth I probably would not have survived childhood due to the quantity and degree of things I questioned. He asks if anyone of us has questions, and being ordinary 4-5 year olds, no one does except me. I ask him an absolutely cruel question - I ask him if he has any clinical trial evidence that second hand smoking causes lung cancer. Now I didn't ask that question to be mean, I was just a young boy who wanted to find out how everyone thought, because I was in awe at the sheer number of ways people seemed to think differently. But it was a mean question, because I already knew the answer to the question - there was no clinical trial evidence yet, because the trials had not been done. He was blindsided by my question, either because he didn't know the answer or because he was perturbed by a 4 year old talking about "clinical trial evidence." He repeated his story about the jazz musician, which annoyed me because I thought he was insinuating I didn't understand the logic behind smoking = lung cancer so smoking exposure = lung cancer. When he asked if I understood, I told him bluntly "so you have no clinical trial evidence." The joys of autism lmao
After that, the anti-smoking chap stopped taking my questions. Afterwards the man asked my teacher if I was the son of some British-American tobacco lobbyists and my teacher in turn asked me - I found it very funny because my mother was a respiratory research nurse with a poor grasp of simple English but a fantastic grasp of advanced medical English, which also went to some length to explaining why I could talk about clinical trial evidence before I knew how to use a comma. In another life perhaps I'd be making big $$$ working for BAT, but alas, I ended up following in her footsteps to become an underpaid respiratory health worker.

In defence of the anti-smoking lobby; they are not vocal about obesity or age related costs on healthcare because they are laser-focused on one thing alone. Countering the smoking lobby. They have much less money than the smoking lobby and have much less access to well-connected talent, who have a tendency to end up employing ministers and diplomats after their political careers have ostensibly finished. It is also not the case that you have smoking-related costs versus age related costs, as you end up getting both at the same time.
As per these digits 79% of premature smoking related deaths occur 70+ years old, 20% at 50-69 years old and 1% at 15-49 years old. This also fits in with what I've seen, I've only ever had one smoking-related patient <age of 40. Thus if we ignore the reality of the human cost and just focus in on the monetary cost, it doesn't make sense from a public finances point of view. Smoking related diseases like COPD are progressive, they trend towards a worsening of all conditions, and it takes a lot of medications to maintain a reasonable standard of living. This is a cost you simply would not have if aforementioned patient was not a smoker. Things get worse when lung function goes below pred <20% and you have to start considering things like oxygen, and suddenly you're spending loads of money trying to keep someone in a state where they can still enjoy life, where if they had not smoked they would actually be more than capable of maintaining an excellent state of health and enjoyable state of life at a cost of £0.

Then there is the human cost of course, which is that smoking takes away a lot from people. A lot of money for starters, but I have had to experience too much already the painful inevitability of patients becoming aware that everything they took for granted is slipping from their fingers. First they can't do their sports anymore, then they can't do the gardening, then they struggle with stairs until they reach the point where they struggle with walking. This is a slow process, and what standard of living they continue with is completely determined on when they stop smoking, or indeed if they stop smoking.

Smokers, heavy-drinkers, great-eaters, people who do high-risk sports and a whole host of other behaviours which contribute to injuries and illness should, for moral reasons, not be penalised or judged. I have seen a lot of people who have been violently aggrieved because a loved one died on a waiting line for some vital surgery which was occupied by other peoples whose illnesses were incurred by their own living habits, but I don't think its a problem of patients vs patients, but a problem of funding for the healthcare industries. If a man got something stuck up his bum or another student scarred their cornea by vodka eyeballing, they are just as in need of healthcare as someone with an infection or injury. That's the point of healthcare - if a drink driver mounts the pavement and runs over a pedestrian, the hospital is going to treat both of them for injury. Let the courts assign blame, not the hospital. It seems strange then that public debate has started toying with the idea of unequal treatment for unequal blame.

I don't push people to quit smoking. The anti-smoking lobbyists are right, in that people inclined to quit smoking usually do so, and those who do not usually do not. All you can do is inform people of the inevitabilities so they know what they're going in for. Smoking is also more powerful in how it grips people, compared to say someone who has an eating disorder. I've had patients who desperately want to stop smoking, but cannot stop themselves. There is something very cruel in watching someone whose partner is dying of lung cancer and still smoking, they themselves have COPD, and any moment their condition improves from new medication - they recommence smoking, and their children are smoking, and their grandchildren are smoking. You could quadruple taxes on tobacco and still the people who are poorest in our countries would rather cancel their holidays than stop smoking, and it would in no way cover the loss to humanity. And then there is the horrifying shift overseas, where as anti-smoking lobbying efforts pay off in the industrial north, tobacco companies nevertheless continue to grow by preying on the youth in Asia and Africa, where domestic anti-smoking lobbyists have even less resources. From the child slave labour used to grow the stuff to the poor consumers who are wasted by the stuff, the entire industry is a chain of misery that benefits non-human entities holding shares in Imperial or BAT the most. That's it. That's all this is for. Make a hedge fund balance sheet go slightly higher, to acquire 1.1% more returns in dividends than if they had just invested in a health insurance fund. The imagination of humankind never ceases to amaze

brewer bob

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120771 on: May 30, 2022, 08:03:52 am »

You could quadruple taxes on tobacco and still the people who are poorest in our countries would rather cancel their holidays than stop smoking, and it would in no way cover the loss to humanity.

This. Raising tobacco taxes really hurts poor people who smoke. While I think it's good to make the tobacco industry pay, it shouldn't happen at the cost of the poor. An addicted smoker won't stop buying tobacco even if it's getting more and more expensive by the month. That money will be away from their food and other necessities, which will cause other problems.

Edit: Exploitation of workers by the tobacco industry has actually made me think of quitting smoking more than once. Haven't done it though since I don't really believe personal choices have much of an impact on the situation.

dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120772 on: May 30, 2022, 08:21:48 am »

It's neoliberal brain. You want to do it for health raise legal age to buy tabacco by 1 year every year... That way the cashiers have to deal with this easy strawman, out of sight out of mind. Not a fan of the stat juggling but if you're concerned about second hand smoke you better not light any candles in your appartment ever.
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Maloy

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120773 on: May 30, 2022, 10:04:39 am »

I was always led to believe that tobacco tax was just to make money because they know addicts will pay whatever

Same with state sponsored lottery tickets. People are gonna gamble no matter what so the government just wants its cut

EuchreJack

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120774 on: May 30, 2022, 02:08:24 pm »

I was always led to believe that tobacco tax was just to make money because they know addicts will pay whatever

Same with state sponsored lottery tickets. People are gonna gamble no matter what so the government just wants its cut
Both are pretty much accurate.
The funds are supposed to be spent on certain things, but the vast majority of the funds just end up in the general fund.

Vector

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120775 on: May 30, 2022, 02:50:30 pm »

At this point I 1,000% agree with the people who think marijuana was criminalized just to fuck with hippies and people of color. Comparing with alcohol's side effects  in terms of "maybe don't use before the age of 30 if you want to be ultra careful," it's ridiculous that it's still federally illegal.

Chocolate, sugar, coffee, tobacco, alcohol, and marijuana are all various forms of drugs, and my opinion at this point is that we can stand to be a little more careful with the first three and a little less careful with the last of these.

(No comment for federal law reasons about whether I, a Californian, have recently found that a derivative of one of the items on this list can help me sleep).

We're finding out that MDMA, LSD, and psilocybin can be used to help people cure, as opposed to just manage indefinitely in a state of constant agony, problems like PTSD, but we've made them illegal instead of studying them 'cuz they make ya hallucinate (or happy). They'll put you on SSRIs, anti-psychotics, or fucking amphetamine-adjacent drugs like Wellbutrin for depression; opioids and opiates for pain; but there's a weird line where they say "OK, you can have this derivative of the poppy plant with accompanying street drug, heroin, but you don't get to have any of this mushroom."

When people tell me how to manage my issues they usually say things like "take Nyquil to make you sleep even if you aren't sick" or "use Xanax." Why the fuck are we making illegal the known and historical treatments for these problems among indigenous populations because they're "too dangerous" and then having folks use medication that has a nice name on it, but is both more addictive and more dangerous in terms of ODing, and often also a lot harder on your body? This is fucked up!

acid trips for everyone 2024
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120776 on: May 30, 2022, 03:27:12 pm »

This. Raising tobacco taxes really hurts poor people who smoke. While I think it's good to make the tobacco industry pay, it shouldn't happen at the cost of the poor. An addicted smoker won't stop buying tobacco even if it's getting more and more expensive by the month. That money will be away from their food and other necessities, which will cause other problems.
There's also the interesting effect of tobacco smuggling and tobacco product counterfeiting. In countries where tobacco products are perfectly legal it seems odd that you would see such a phenomenon, but it happens on small to large scales for all the same reason; avoiding tax, increasing profits per pack. Imo the tax should not be applied on the tobacco product at purchase, but the tax should be applied to the actual company - on their dividends, on the value of their shares and the bonuses they give to their executives.

Edit: Exploitation of workers by the tobacco industry has actually made me think of quitting smoking more than once. Haven't done it though since I don't really believe personal choices have much of an impact on the situation.
Individually, perhaps not, but in aggregate and over time yes. It's like the butterfly effect; you step in a time machine and accidentally step on a butterfly 200 years ago; you return to the 2000s and find everything has changed. Small things today ripple out in huge ways tomorrow

also @Vec yeah even if it didn't start that way it's usually how it ends; stuff like cocaine used by rich and powerful persons is openly used in government bathrooms and despite the abundance of security and witnesses, nothing seems to be done about it. There was an interesting UK police officer who became a drug reform lobbyist. He brought up the very interesting point, which is that although aggressive policing was successful at taking out a specific criminal organisation trafficking drugs, they were failing on the bigger picture. Because every time they eliminated one criminal organisation, that would create a local untapped market for drug dealers searching for new suppliers, which resulted in police unintentionally helping the illicit drug market consolidate under the most violent and competitive criminal enterprises. Weeks of work to take out one trafficking organisation only to find they interrupted the drug supply for less than an hour. Plus there is something pretty funny in how the legal system recognises that drug addiction amongst wealthy and powerful persons is best treated with rehab but for poor persons is best treated with zero tolerance prison sentences. Well it's not funny in a laughable way, just funny in a "makes you think" way

brewer bob

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120777 on: May 30, 2022, 07:38:37 pm »

Edit: Exploitation of workers by the tobacco industry has actually made me think of quitting smoking more than once. Haven't done it though since I don't really believe personal choices have much of an impact on the situation.
Individually, perhaps not, but in aggregate and over time yes. It's like the butterfly effect; you step in a time machine and accidentally step on a butterfly 200 years ago; you return to the 2000s and find everything has changed. Small things today ripple out in huge ways tomorrow

Yeah, I'll admit it's more of an excuse (at least for me) to not stop smoking by thinking "my personal consumer choices don't matter".

King Zultan

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120778 on: May 31, 2022, 01:21:49 am »

At this point I 1,000% agree with the people who think marijuana was criminalized just to fuck with hippies and people of color.
If I remember right it was criminalized because the lumber industry found out it could be used to make paper cheaper than they could and since they wanted to continue to be rich they found a way to make it sound bad and awful so it'd go away and they'd continue to make money.
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #120779 on: May 31, 2022, 08:06:57 am »

All of the above. A coalition of assholes creating easy targets for their predatory selves, they hate the ego dampener.
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