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[Kagus]

Fuck dating, fuck people, fuck everything. I'm fucking tired. I'll play Borderlands instead.

[Egan_BW]

Wonderful choice, though I'd recommend playing a game that's actually fun to play without other people.

[Naturegirl1999]

Yes, value is arbitrary. I don't think anyone contested that?

Let me clarify. I was highlighting a difference in the arbitrary worth which is ascribed to monetary systems.

In representative currency, the currency stands for something else which is itself only valuable by arbitrary standards. The currency's worth is arbitrary too, but only with reference to some other (also arbitrary) value. This is what you were describing with wishbones.

In older systems, the currency was gold/silver and so forth. Its value was directly linked to how much gold/silver was in the coinage. If the value of gold plummeted, so would the (arbitrary) value of the coins.

Wishbones, on the other hand, make a more stable currency. If the value of wishbones plummets, who cares? The bone stands for something else. Its arbitrary value is linked to something greater, i.e. the nation's economy.

Yes. Thank you

In its original sense money did have a value in and of itself, consisting as it did of valuable metals. Viking armbands, for instance, were often made of gold. As a form of payment, they would break parts off and hand them out.

Being valuable for payment doesn't make it useful. It's been relatively recently in the history of gold that we started using it for it's conductive properties.

Use in decorative jewellery and the ornaments of the elite is still 'useful'.

Edit: Although my main point was that representational currency such as Ng was describing (in which the item symbolises worth) came later. First, the worth of currency was directly linked to the worth of the gold/metals which it contained.

The metal is still only valuable because we think it is

Things are only valuable because we think they are.

This is correct. This makes value arbitrary. Humans will sometimes kill for large amounts of something with an arbitrary value.(money)

Not any more arbitrary than anything else. Things are valuable because we think they are valuable. There is no inherent physical quality making them valuable outside the scope of human activity, so by definition all value is arbitrary, be that of money, or food and water gor that matter. INSIDE the scope of human activity however, any commodity that acts as currency is useful to acquire other commodities or services.

I agree with you.

[Hanslanda]

*reads*

I just kinda give no fucks about economics when the world climates are rapidly changing and will probably kill my sons early.

[Naturegirl1999]

*reads*

I just kinda give no fucks about economics when the world climates are rapidly changing and will probably kill my sons early.

I agree this is a problem. Unfortunatly money is all the powerful care about, so we need to somehow convince them to forgo short term profits of destroying the planet via burning fossil fuels, to long term investments, like renewable energy that doesn’t pollute the planet. I agree that the environment should be protected, but nothing will get done if the powers that be don’t see profit

[Wizard of Manaia]

We are the ones who are destroying it. Do not shift the responsibility onto others when it is ourselves we must look at.

[hector13]

There’s scale, though. I don’t think me running my AC all day, while guilt-inducing, is quite the same as the energy sector’s reliance on fossil fuels over renewables, as one example, or Bolsonaro allowing ranchers to slash-and-burn the Amazon for another, among many, many more.

[Wizard of Manaia]

Where does your power come from.

[hector13]

Well done, but again, I am one person. Whether or not I had the AC on, or abandoned my existence in society in favour of chasing deer in the woods and using their leavings for warmth, the power is being generated, mostly via fossil fuel combustion.

[wierd]

My take:

Society at large will not allow me to abandon modern excess.

I would have gone off into the woods ages ago, if that was an option.  Modern society actively patrols wilderness areas to prevent this. Modern society enforces borders to prevent human migration patterns, to keep people out, and also, keep people in. 

Give me the option to stop consuming, and I would take it.  But-- while being mandated to consume, being derided for that consumption? That's bullshit.  Those that mandate the consumption need to stop mandating it first.

[Arx]

We are the ones who are destroying it. Do not shift the responsibility onto others when it is ourselves we must look at.

The grim truth is that the responsibility is others'. I could not in my lifetime do even a tiny fraction of the damage fossil fuel lobbies in the US and elsewhere have done to the climate. The only actual option most individuals have is to rally for real institutional change, and IMO it's a critical responsibility, but as long as governments and large corporations are propping up fossil energy and turning a blind eye to destructive manufacturing, there's nothing a member of the capitalist plebiscite can do.

I'd love it if I could make a meaningful difference by myself. It'd be fantastic. But all I can do is try to make my government do things that do make a difference.


It's not even a question of wierd's "the world won't let me stop consuming" - you totally can. No-one forces you to use electricity. No-one's stopping you growing a ton of vegetables in your back garden. No-one's forcing you to eat meat, particularly beef. There is no reason you can't massively slash your carbon footprint by dropping nearly all modern amenities. It doesn't have to be absolutely everything or nothing - that's a shallow excuse. There are plenty of ways to stop consuming.

It's just both rather unpleasant and almost completely futile.

[wierd]

Arx--

You would be surprised.  The requirement to have capital (specifically to pay taxes) necessitates gainful employment, and that necessitates the need for keeping certain appearances, which are only realistically possible with modern convenience in developed countries.

Failure to pay taxes means ending up in situations where you CANNOT grow vegetables, because you have no legit place to grow them.  Everyone is out for their slice of flesh, and failure to deliver, will end up with you being less than a non-person.   

It takes a significant amount of real-estate to reliably sustain a single person if they are going for self-sufficiency.  That kind of real-estate is not available without causing a massive degradation of the commons, and the social infrastructure is not yet so horrible as to enable that. (The common concensus is that you need between 5 and 10 acres for self sufficiency)


For the same reasons people cannot just pack up and move to get better jobs, and end up trapped in slums, we cannot simply drop modern convenience while these little catch-22s are in effect.

[Arx]

Then wash yourself in cold water. If you suddenly feel an urge to shave, buy a straight razor once and maintain it. Soap for personal washing is largely unnecessary; you can get by using only a small amount. For clothes, you only need to heat a limited amount of water, and you can wash by hand; again, soap is something you don't need to use a ton of.

During the water crisis here (we were rationed to to ~50 litres per person per day [this sounds like a lot; the average person can blow through it in minutes]) I had a colleague who cycled to work every day and took only extremely short cold showers every other day. His personal hygiene was fantastic (I sat in meetings in un-air-conditioned rooms in African summer heat with him, I should know).

It's entirely possible to live practically off-grid. You don't have to become a cave man. You can maintain the same standard of appearance and hygiene. It's just hard, tedious, unpleasant work.

I don't think you're unreasonable for not doing it, but I don't think you're being honest with yourself about your reason for not doing it.

E: I guess this fits pretty well into the die nobly/live humbly dichotomy, viz. it's easy to die for a cause, it's hard to live for it. You want to die nobly for your cause, but you're not willing to put in the hard yards to live humbly for your cause.

[wierd]

Not exactly;  I view that it is entirely possible to have some aspects of modern convenience if you are able to supply the energy needs for that convenience yourself. 

Access to materials is the killer.  To maintain equipment, you need both tools and raw materials.  The raw materials are the problem. 


But again, you are overlooking some important things about the US vis-a-vis African nations.  We have "County health departments" which literally mandate living conditions.
https://lucascountyhealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/housing-regulations_3.pdf

(For an example.)

SECTION 4.0 – MINIMUM SANITATION STANDARDS No person shall occupy as owner-occupant, or let to another for occupancy any dwelling or dwelling unit, for the purpose of living, sleeping, cooking or eating therein, which does not comply with the following requirements: 4.

1)Every  dwelling  unit  shall  contain  a  kitchen  sink  which  is  properly connected  to  a  water  and  sewer  system  approved  by  the  Health Commissioner. 4.
2)Every dwelling unit shall contain a room which affords privacy to a person within  such  room  and  which  is  equipped  with  a  flush  water  closet,  a lavatory and a bathtub or shower, connected to a water and sewer system approved by the Health Commissioner. 4.
3)Every sink, lavatory, bathtub, or shower shall be properly connected with hot and cold water lines.  The hot water lines shall be connected to a hot water  heating  facility  of  adequate  size  which  provides  at all  times  a temperature of not less than 120° F. 4.
4)Every dwelling and dwelling unit shall be supplied with a potable water supply.  There shall be adequate water supply and pressure at all installed hot and cold water outlets.
4.
5)All plumbing shall be properly installed and maintained in good working condition, free from defects, leaks, and obstructions. 4.
6)Every dwelling unit shall be supplied adequate rubbish storage facilities, type and location of which are acceptable to the Health Commissioner and shall be disposed of in a manner acceptable to the Health Commissioner. 4.
7)Every dwelling unit shall have adequate garbage disposal facilities, type and location of which are acceptable to the Health Commissioner and shall be disposed of in a manner acceptable to the Health Commissioner. 4.
8)Every dwelling shall have a safe unobstructed means of egress leading to a safe and open outdoor space at ground level. 4.
9)Every habitable room shall have at least one window or skylight facing directly  to  the  outdoors.    The  minimum  total  window  area,  for  every habitable room is to be 10 percent of the floor area of such room.
EXPLANATION:  Whenever the only window in a room is a skylight type  window  in  the  top  of  such  room,  the  total  window  area  of  such skylight is to equal at least 15 percent of the total floor area of such room.

(See how you are mandated to keep a hot water heater, and to keep it running, and that it must be attached to a water and sewer system that is inspected and approved by the health authority. This forces you to have to engage with the society, and thus to play the employment, and consumption game.)

This includes rural areas.

[Arx]

I skimmed that PDF and I didn't see anything saying the police will arrest you for not switching on your lights, not using a computer, not using your outlets.

Like I said; no-one's forcing you to use this stuff. It has to be available. You don't have to use it. It's a bit depressing keeping water you nearly never use at 120F, but it also doesn't take much to maintain a temperature like that in a properly-insulated tank, or if you have a heat pump.

You can meet the sanitation requirements with cold water, elbow grease, and less-than-industrial quantities of soap. You will have to buy stuff to fix the house when it physically breaks, yes. That doesn't invalidate everything else. You're still hanging onto the all-or-nothing mindset.

If you were raising a child or something it'd be different, but you're no more going to become a non-person for living an absolute baseline lifestyle than you are for not seeing a doctor about your suspected tumours.