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[TheBiggerFish]

Those forced "rehab" programs really ought to be illegal.  Terrifying.

They are, I think?
Unless you're a minor and your parents signed all your rights away...In which case you're pretty much screwed.
But I wouldn't be surprised if there was a lawsuit you could win if you brought it.

[Yoink]

Lemmy died.

I wish I didn't get out of bed this morning.

[Amperzand]

Gotta love how many people keep dying over christmas.

[Reelya]

since people are still talking about it, the last rehab stat I researched was about fully randomized trial that contrasted AA with three other science-based treatment options and the all-important control group.

It's significant because it's one of the few trials where participants didn't self-select. e.g. many claims of AA's effectiveness are based on the number of long-term members who are abstinent, e.g. "80% of members have been sober for over 1 year". But only 5% of people who join AA last over 1 year. If you don't complete the program, they say you failed the program, not the program failed you, so you don't count. You're not constitutionally fit to do the program. AA's founder Bob Wilson claimed that they were born unfit to be cured. Since AA says alcoholism is a disease, imagine a medicine which failed to help 95% of patients then the doctor claimed the 95% of dead people weren't constitutionally fit to take the medicine, but the medicine works 100% of the time if you're up for it. That logic just does not fly when claiming your "method" is 100% effective and the only method.

Back to the scientific trials, AA did better than nothing by most measures, but not as good as getting actual treatment that's evidence based, and adapts itself based on research.

There was one area that AA did shockingly worse than all other options: binge drinking. AA members binge drank at 9 times the rate of those receiving professional interventions, and at almost 5 times the rate of those receiving no treatment at all. This is due to the AA ideology that if you have 1 sip of alcohol the drink will take over and it's not a choice - the disease is controlling you. And they literally have blood on their hands due to this. One stark example was a woman who quite publically switched from a program called Moderation Management which she had been on for over 10 years to the abstinence-based AA. Three months later, she binge drank and killed a father and son via drunk driving.

[IronTomato]

So basically they tried to bullshit their way out of looking as bad as they are by saying "It's not that we don't work for 95 percent of people, it's just that all of those people are dumb"?

That's probably the lamest excuse I've heard from any group of human beings ever. Why have I never heard anyone saying anything bad about AA before now?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Because, at least in America, not only is AA essentially a cult (at the very least, they hit enough points to be a pseudo-cult), but a cult that has managed to maneuver itself into being an informal tool of the state against alcohol. The vast majority of the judiciary makes it one of their go-tos for sentences other than fines and jailtime, and while I can see an angle to that which isn't a bad thing, most are probably also vastly unaware of AA's particulars. I imagine AA likes it this way, since making people attend it does violate the 1st Amendment.

[Bauglir]

The worldview of the people who're successful in the program depends on its truth and worth. If the program worked for them, it was because they needed something like it to look up to as an infallible guide and authority. Admitting that it isn't perfect would be admitting that the beliefs that keep them from drinking are wrong. So if the program is the ultimate cure, then if someone fails the problem must lie with that person.

I'm not siding with them, which I hope is obvious, but it's not a terribly surprising excuse. It's the same thing faith healers, psychics, and so many other things prey on (especially when the person or group taking advantage buys into their own hype).

[Reelya]

So basically they tried to bullshit their way out of looking as bad as they are by saying "It's not that we don't work for 95 percent of people, it's just that all of those people are dumb"?

That's probably the lamest excuse I've heard from any group of human beings ever. Why have I never heard anyone saying anything bad about AA before now?

Yeah, and it's worse than just "people who didn't work the steps" (AA lingo for doing it right). If you are in AA and follow the rules perfectly for 20 years, then go mental and commit suicide often via  an alcoholic binge (pretty common according to what longterm ex-AA members say) you're not counted as someone who "worked the steps" so it's not their fault. All AA's published successes are based on surveys of living members. They could literally have a 99.9% suicide rate and that wouldn't show up at all in their "success rate" surveys, purely because dead people don't fill out surveys. The "anonymous" part of AA allows them to get away with this, since they don't formally track any membership rolls.

It's mentioned that AA love slogans and sayings, and some people point out that the slogans replace independent thought, and they have a litany of slogans design to shut you up if you disagree with anything they tell you. "your best thinking got you here" is one of their favorites, in response to any "I think ..." statement where you disagree with any of their ideas. They also love the saying "insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" when referring to other treatments or behaviors they don't like, but don't apply that principle to their own program. If you do the 12 steps and claim it didn't help, they label you as insane for questioning the program, and double-down on the 12 steps.

[Xantalos]

E:
i'm scared of messaging her partially because of the whole try to act like a friend thing and in that context it just seems a bit weird i guess

Being in love with someone and being their friend at the same time is perfectly possible. I've been doing that and keeping my feelings secret from said person for a little under a year and a half now. Been getting worse and worse at the keeping it secret part, and it hurts like a goddamn bitch from time to time from all the repression you have to do, but it's possible.

[MaximumZero]

E:
i'm scared of messaging her partially because of the whole try to act like a friend thing and in that context it just seems a bit weird i guess

Being in love with someone and being their friend at the same time is perfectly possible. I've been doing that and keeping my feelings secret from said person for a little under a year and a half now. Been getting worse and worse at the keeping it secret part, and it hurts like a goddamn bitch from time to time from all the repression you have to do, but it's possible.

Being in love with someone while simultaneously being their friend is how you get a good relationship. Would you guys fucking talk about your feelings with these girls, please? The whole lot of you, just talk to him/her/it for fuck's sake. Repeat after me: "Look, I wanted to bring this to your attention before it became a whole drama thing. I find myself developing feelings for you, and wanted to know if it was mutual." The worst that can happen is you get a no, and things are a little awkward for a bit, and you find someone who does share your feelings.

[TheBiggerFish]

...And MZero says what I really hope I have the nerve to do at some point, if I am at all lucky with interacting with anybody...

[MaximumZero]

...And MZero says what I really hope I have the nerve to do at some point, if I am at all lucky with interacting with anybody...

It doesn't take nerve. It takes a shift in perspective. Which I will hand to you.

You're never going to touch the butt if you don't make it exceedingly clear that you want to. The direct approach is the only approach that works routinely. You leave no room for wishy-washy drama bullshit. You get a yes or a no, and you take it from there. Just say, "Hey, this is a thing. Is it a thing? Press Y or N to continue."

Would you appreciate it if someone hid their feelings from you because they were afraid of what you might say? If not, don't do it to them.

[Reelya]

So basically they tried to bullshit their way out of looking as bad as they are by saying "It's not that we don't work for 95 percent of people, it's just that all of those people are dumb"?

That's probably the lamest excuse I've heard from any group of human beings ever. Why have I never heard anyone saying anything bad about AA before now?

That's what I was wondering when I started to uncover this stuff so I thought I'd air it here to get some opinions. It's so much ingrained that questioning AA is like saying that Tibet under the Dalai Lama was bad or that Mother Theresa's treatment of the poor was bad. All those and AA are questionable when you look into them, but if you publicly attack them you might as well say you kill puppies for fun.

[Sinistar]

Lemmy died.

I wish I didn't get out of bed this morning.

I was just about to post the news, but things happen when you sleep.

FFF. And to think I had an opportunity to finally see them live a year or so ago. Didn't know it was a once in a life time opportunity. This really sucks.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I remember a few months ago there was an article about Lemmy switching from straight whiskey to vodka and OJ as his standard drink for health reasons.