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[Rolan7]

man, sometimes i wish we had a thread to post in when we were sad and not be ignored.

I was kinda annoyed at being ignored too, but I guess the Life Advice subforum is for that.

Though it does suck that this is getting clogged up with irrelevant semi-banned gender discussion again.

[Bohandas]

Perhaps you're familiar with the idea of "duress"? The idea that someone can be influenced into consent in a situation in which they normally wouldn't?

To present a hyperbole for example, say a violent rapist points a gun at someone then says "Lets have sex, or I'll shoot you." The victim agrees. Yes, this is consent in a literal sense, but I think most decent people would agree that it was given under extenuating circumstances that made them act outside of their normal interests.

The same can be said of agreeing to something while in an altered state of consciousness from being drugged, drinking, etc. Yes someone is responsible for getting themselves drunk. So too, others are responsible for not taking advantage of their drunken judgement to get them to agree to something they wouldn't while sober.

P.S. Though this statistic makes me sad, I think this might be a discussion to take to another thread? It's getting big enough to support itself, and constitutes a bit of a derail.

That's not a valid comparison at all.

The crucial defining point of rape, the thing that makes it bad, is that the person is forced into it.

The only thing that matters is if the person wants to have sex, which is a purely emotional factor; cognitive impairment is therefore irrelevant, as there's nothing relevant that needs to be considered with your rational thought (not unless the world runs out of rubber).

[Magistrum]

You've got to be kidding me.

Indeed.

Though it does suck that this is getting clogged up with irrelevant semi-banned gender discussion again.

I am very sorry for the fate that has overcome us.

[Bohandas]

It's not like they're buying a car or doing something that needs to be carefully thought out or carefully considered. This isn't the 1800's.

You've got to be kidding me.

Rubber condoms first mass-produced in 1855

[miauw62]

Honestly, it just really pisses me off. I don't have anybody to talk to about my problems. So what the fuck am I supposed to do if at the one place where I can talk about them I'm just ignored?

[Bohandas]

Honestly, it just really pisses me off. I don't have anybody to talk to about my problems. So what the fuck am I supposed to do if at the one place where I can talk about them I'm just ignored?

What was your issue again? Let's talk about it now.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Solifuge]

I think it's a good policy to not cherry pick which studies "sound right" to us, simply because the data is inconvenient or upsetting.

-snip-

You have an interesting opinion on what constitutes rape. I disagree, as does the law, and most people I've ever spoken with. In closing, I'd urge you to reconsider how you define Consent, particularly if slipping someone a drug or singling out people under the influence doesn't seem like duress or "taking advantage" of them to you. That said, if you've simply closed yourself off to considering the perspectives here presented, let's agree to disagree and let the thread carry on.

[Vector]

-snip-

[Bohandas]

I think it's a good policy to not cherry pick which studies "sound right" to us, simply because the data is inconvenient or upsetting.

-snip-

You have an interesting opinion on what constitutes rape. I disagree, as does the law, and most people I've ever spoken with. In closing, I'd urge you to reconsider how you define Consent, particularly if slipping someone a drug or singling out people under the influence doesn't seem like duress or "taking advantage" of them to you. That said, if you've simply closed yourself off to considering the perspectives here presented, let's agree to disagree and let the thread carry on.

There's a big difference between drugging someone and interacting woth someone who has taken drugs voluntarily

[Vector]

-snip-

[Magistrum]

Like I pointed out though, it's murky in voluntary cases. It's assumed to an extent that since you decided to take the drugs/booze/what have you, you're accepting SOME measure of responsibility for your actions (which is why people who get drunk and into a fight are still arrested), but it's heavily debated how far that responsibility goes. To one person having sex whilst drunk is tantamount to rape because they weren't in a fit state of mind, whilst to others it's consensual because you accepted that poor decisions would be part of it.

I agree, this is mostly foggy in most details, but we all concur that those numbers were very high.
Can the sad thread be a bit happier for a moment and have the other people's sads?

[Rolan7]

There's a big difference between drugging someone and interacting woth someone who has taken drugs voluntarily

If I drug you and say, "okay, let's have sex," versus you got so drunk you were in the same state of mind and then I came up and said "let's have sex," the sex part of it is functionally equivalent. Someone is drugged, and then someone says "let's have sex." The drugging part is, you're correct, another crime itself.

Yes, but that's carefully ignoring a vital piece of information.  In the first situation the rapist took away their ability to think clearly.  In the second, the victim did it to themselves.  If I drug myself, why should anyone else be responsible for my decisions?

Drunk drivers are fully responsible for the consequences of their impaired decisions.  But if they agree to have sex, then they're suddenly victims?  What if they decide to rape someone (in the classic sense), is that not their fault either?

I get drunk a *lot*, and sometimes I go too far and say really stupid things, but I regret and take responsibility for it all.

Edit:  It's a lot greyer when the suspected rapist encourages the victim to get overly drunk or drugged.  That seems like criminal manipulation of some kind to me.  Which sounds like a mess to prove, though, sadly.

[Bohandas]

There's a big difference between drugging someone and interacting woth someone who has taken drugs voluntarily

If I drug you and say, "okay, let's have sex," versus you got so drunk you were in the same state of mind and then I came up and said "let's have sex," the sex part of it is functionally equivalent. Someone is drugged, and then someone says "let's have sex." The drugging part is, you're correct, another crime itself.

Yes, but that's carefully ignoring a vital piece of information.  In the first situation the rapist took away their ability to think clearly.  In the second, the victim did it to themselves.  If I drug myself, why should anyone else be responsible for my decisions?

Drunk drivers are fully responsible for the consequences of their impaired decisions.  But if they agree to have sex, then they're suddenly victims?  What if they decide to rape someone (in the classic sense), is that not their fault either?

I get drunk a *lot*, and sometimes I go too far and say really stupid things, but I regret and take responsibility for it all.

There are a lot of good points there. The drunk driving thing is an especially valid point.

[AlleeCat]

People also say no to sex when they're drunk

Nope. I'm not getting into this. I'm going to be the bigger person and walk away.