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Author Topic: Things that made you sad today thread.  (Read 9750196 times)

hops

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81960 on: September 24, 2014, 01:46:57 am »

I still feel some kind of meta-sad that nowadays I'm entirely too conceited to sit and listen to people if they want to vent.

I mean, I could do that but I'd feel like I'm just listening to them for selfish reasons.
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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81961 on: September 24, 2014, 01:58:40 am »

I still feel some kind of meta-sad that nowadays I'm entirely too conceited to sit and listen to people if they want to vent.

I mean, I could do that but I'd feel like I'm just listening to them for selfish reasons.

I don't care if you listen to me vent. Hell, I'd prefer if people didn't listen to me vent. Or if they do listen, they'd purge it from their memory immediately after. Or, best case scenario, no one even notices. Or even better, I don't even vent. Shit's embarrassing yo. Well, for me. It's embarrassing for me. It's like I seem to think I can vent better by cramming my feet in my mouth.
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WillowLuman

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81962 on: September 24, 2014, 02:17:44 am »

Saw an ad for yet another godawful dumbass bromedy. It was for the DvD, and had one of the characters humping a box that said "special features" or something in the corner of the ad the whole time. Why does reading about genocide and neglected, feral children not shake me this way but shit like this makes me sad for this planet?
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Knit tie

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81963 on: September 24, 2014, 02:46:06 am »

I am sad, not angry.

Anyway, the rant.

There are many eyewitness (for example, on the site iremember.ru) and victim accounts of the Red Army's mass rapes, especially in Berlin, and other atrocities. Claiming otherwise, I believe, is outright idiotic. However, there's almost no hard physical data on the scale of said war crimes. All numbers, such as the ones cited by Anthony Beevor, for example, are results of various amounts of guesswork and extrapolation, the latter of which is based on the number of births, pregnancies and abortions in 1945 on the occupied territories, which most likely do not provide accurate data on the number of rape cases due to the fact that pregnancies and abortions result not only from rape but also from :
1) Consensual sex with enemy troops due to mutual attraction or unrequited sexual desire, comparatively rare as these cases may be.
2) Arguably consensual sex with enemy troops in order to gain various goods and/or services from them (such cases were widespread in the American army, where about 15% of soldiers had venereal diseases from Italian, French and German women from whom they have bought sex in exchange for food, tobacco, soap, etc...,).
3) Consensual sex with husbands, boyfriends, roommates, co-inhabitants and other men of the same nationality and/or faction as they were heading out to battle and wanted to have one last romp before they die.
4) Consensual sex with husbands, boyfriends, roommates, co-inhabitants and other men of the same nationality and/or faction due to the women not wanting to lose their virginity to the enemy troops, which were portrayed by the Axis propaganda as a horde of barbaric rapists, bandits and murderers in order to garner the civilian population's support of defence effort.

The number of rape victims in Berlin, the most famous case of Soviet war atrocities, is widely believed to be somewhere between 20,000 and 100,000 women. This data is based mostly on the number of abortions Berlin women had in the months following the Soviet occupation, which were performed for free if the woman wrote a declaration stating that she has been raped by an enemy soldier. Considering that abortions were otherwise mostly prohibited in Germany at that time, it is not unreasonable to assume that at least some of the women who claimed that they had been raped by Soviet troops were lying in order to recieve an abortion they otherwise had no chance of getting. In addition, most women in their declarations described their rapists as asian, or asiatic-looking, with narrow eyes and flat faces. Considering that the absolute majority of Red Army soldiers were distinctly european, with members of the asian race being a minority, and that the "barbarous asian" was the prevailing Soviet stereotype at the time thanks to Goebbels' propaganda, the aforementioned fact further undermines the credibility of the statement that the number of claimed rape cases in Berlin corellates with the number of actual rape cases. Of course, for some of the rape victims the trauma, or the fear, might have been so overwhelming that they couldn't remember the faces of their assailants clearly, but it is also possible that women who weren't raped but still wanted to have an abortion lied about it and in their declarations described the stereotypical asiatic Soviet barbarian because they wanted to be believed (likewise, most of the Berlin women in Allied-occupied regions who claimed that they were raped described their assailants as black).

What is the point of this quasi-scientific rant? I want to say that it is almost impossible to determine how many rapes did the Red Army commit, even though there's ample evidence that rape took place.

But Knit Tie, you say, why don't people just accept this fact like they accepted the Holocaust and say that "The number of women who were raped by the Soviets is unknown, but it most likely numbers in the tens, even hundreds of thousands. This is a dark blemish on the Red Army's reputation that should also be remembered as a proof that all sides suffer greatly in war?"

I don't know.

I!
Don't!
Know!!!


Instead, we have this horrible situation where this historical fact of Soviet atrocities is wielded like a weapon by every side of the argument in an attempt to prove their point of view. Anti-Soviets cite each other and various obviously politically-charged books, papers and films and claim that increasingly large numbers of women were raped by the Red Army and that the USSR is therefore completely evil and bad. Pro-Soviets refute these statements with equally worthless politically-charged books and papers and try to prove that the USSR was a time of halcyon glory, where none of the Stalin's purges or mass deportations took place. Unbiased opinion is completely absent even among the rape victims themselves.

And I am sad, really, really sad because this slew of propaganda is insulting to the memories of both the genuinely heroic Soviets and the victims of their immoral compatriots.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 02:49:46 am by Knit tie »
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81964 on: September 24, 2014, 04:46:16 am »

Quote
genuinely heroic Soviets
Uh-huh. Depends on your definition of heroism, I guess.

Now, I'm not going to go on a spiel about how communism is evil and all that. I do know that Lenin lead Russia into a "worker's paradise", if you will, for a couple of years before Ye Olde Staline took over. And I actually quite like the idea of a moderate degree of socialism.
My point, however, is that the Red Army weren't exactly good guys. I'm not really sure why you appear to be defending them.
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81965 on: September 24, 2014, 04:51:11 am »

spoiler alert: the red army was people

bonus spoiler: they weren't all the same person

bonus spoiler special double edition: there are differences between two people that are not the same
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 04:53:07 am by LordSlowpoke »
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Knit tie

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81966 on: September 24, 2014, 05:16:05 am »

Quote
genuinely heroic Soviets
Uh-huh. Depends on your definition of heroism, I guess.

Now, I'm not going to go on a spiel about how communism is evil and all that. I do know that Lenin lead Russia into a "worker's paradise", if you will, for a couple of years before Ye Olde Staline took over. And I actually quite like the idea of a moderate degree of socialism.
My point, however, is that the Red Army weren't exactly good guys. I'm not really sure why you appear to be defending them.
Oh no, I am not defending the ol' Mustachio's regime by any means. Katyn, NKVD shooting people, deportations (not only from Lithuania and Estonia, Stalin deported cossacks, greeks and many other peoples after the war into Siberia in absolutely horrible conditions under the excuse of them being Nazi collaborators), antisemitism, discrimination against POWs, purges, filtration camps, idiotic decisions immediately before and during the first two years of war that led to Wehrmacht wiping the floor with the opposition, refusal to listen to his spies about the upcoming war just because, brutal totalitarianism, personality cult fostering - all of that happened and is right now denied only by the most hardcore of stalinists. Holodomor also happened, except it wasn't a deliberate genocide attempt, but rather a country-wide famine brought on by the complete ineptitude of the Soviet government during collectivisation and an epidemic of rye blight that just so happened to coincide. Not only Ukraine was hit, any Russian grandpa will tell you how the area near Volga, Povolzhye, was devastated as well.

But I digress.

Im my post, I wasn't defending the Red Army, I was expressing my sadness at how people could turn tragedies into an idiotic political arguement. Like the saying goes "nothing sacred for these people".

spoiler alert: the red army was people

bonus spoiler: they weren't all the same person

bonus spoiler special double edition: there are differences between two people that are not the same
My point exactly. Nobody portrays them as people. They are either God's Angels of Righteous Fury and Impeccable Socialist Realistim-esque Character, or Horrible Orc-Troll-Monkey Rapists and Murderers a-la Mongols.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81967 on: September 24, 2014, 05:37:37 am »

I really should read the whole wall of text before I respond to it, huh.
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Bauglir

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81968 on: September 24, 2014, 07:48:08 am »

KT, if something CAN be turned into a political argument, it's not if, but when.
And that's a mighty sad thing.
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Iceblaster

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81969 on: September 24, 2014, 08:27:27 am »

The feeling of inadequecy has returned.

It brought its friend too!

The inability to start working on school projects!

:(

mastahcheese

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81970 on: September 24, 2014, 09:27:43 am »

Well, it happened again.

Another instance where I ended up getting so upset that my body locked up and I couldn't speak, followed by getting screamed at because I wasn't able to respond until I started convulsing.
At least now, rather than screaming at me more for it, they've swicthed to saying "whatever" and walking out of the room to go watch tv until I stop shaking like a crazy person.

I guess that's an improvement.
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Tiruin

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81971 on: September 24, 2014, 09:59:06 am »

KT, if something CAN be turned into a political argument, it's not if, but when.
And that's a mighty sad thing.
True that :S
Unlike a natural disaster, this is pretty much a conscious choice for those who change the 'if' to 'when'. :-\

Well, it happened again.

Another instance where I ended up getting so upset that my body locked up and I couldn't speak, followed by getting screamed at because I wasn't able to respond until I started convulsing.
At least now, rather than screaming at me more for it, they've swicthed to saying "whatever" and walking out of the room to go watch tv until I stop shaking like a crazy person.

I guess that's an improvement.
*hugs*
You've made a lot of progress since before, though.
You can do this!
Fun fact: People screaming at each other doesn't help.
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Vector

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81972 on: September 24, 2014, 10:21:12 am »

.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 10:08:55 pm by Vector »
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XXSockXX

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81973 on: September 24, 2014, 10:59:39 am »

In addition, most women in their declarations described their rapists as asian, or asiatic-looking, with narrow eyes and flat faces.

My step-grandmother is from somewhere near Stuttgart and an army rolled in that, indeed, was pretty clearly going to rape everyone and looked "Asiatic" (this, after being shot at as she worked in the fields by American planes). She, however, says that she has no idea whose army it was... Kind of strange, huh? My dad postulated that maybe it was a French foreign legion, but who knows...
French Foreign Legion is possible I guess, since the Russians didn't make it anywhere near Stuttgart.

Depends a lot what people mean by "Asiatic" or what they meant at the time. We would associate narrow eyes and flat faces as a Mongolic type, but at the time people who had never seen Russians before (smaller world back then) might just mean Eastern Slavic types.
Many people of Eastern Slavic descent have features that do not look "typically European" to central or western Europeans, just as Southern Europeans look different from Northern Europeans and so on.
So that army near Stuttgart might very well have been a US army, depending how the ethnic composition was perceived.
Also remember that at the time, people in Germany were trained in schools how to identify "typical" races by criteria like the shape of eyes, skull, cheekbones etc. By the definitions that were used back then, for example Putin is clearly not European looking.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 11:08:29 am by XXSockXX »
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Helgoland

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #81974 on: September 24, 2014, 11:05:15 am »

AFAIK the Russians never got to Stuttgart, which is in the south-west - and indeed was part of near the French zone of occupation. So yeah, probably American or French soldiers. The Russians never got that far west, I believe.
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