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[Shakerag]

From what I understand, it's mostly:
"remove the 'and other' part from illnesses",
"stop calling everything that's not culturally accepted an illness", and
"somebody requiring (professional) help that does not make him/her, by definition, ill"

Also so much copy-pasta o.o

Yes, that's a good gist of it.  Also that the over-labeling and over-medicating may be causing more harm than good (which I agree with).

[MaximumZero]

From what I understand, it's mostly:
"remove the 'and other' part from illnesses",
"stop calling everything that's not culturally accepted an illness", and
"somebody requiring (professional) help that does not make him/her, by definition, ill"

Also so much copy-pasta o.o

Yes, that's a good gist of it.  Also that the over-labeling and over-medicating may be causing more harm than good (which I agree with).

That's about the long and short of it, yeah. Now if we could get the US to do the same thing.

[wierd]

The paraphillia one has me a little concerned as well. While they are talking more specifically about rape, the argument they are giving is just the mirrored image of what the anti-homosexual crowd stated 30 years ago.

EG, "sodomy is a crime, not an orientation".

The argument is also complicated by a pretty substantive body of evidence for the existence of at least one class of pedophile that exhibits qualities normally associated with a true sexual preference, including inability to be "corrected"-- just that the objects of their preferences are underage or barely pubescent individuals. Their line of argument is banal, and would apply there as well "Pedophilia is a crime, not a disorder."

I suppose they could be that they are just being overly pedantic-- but that doesn't work either with how "Disorder" is defined. (I'd say having consequences that amount to living in jail for the rest of your life counts toward "interferes with normal daily life" quite a lot, personally.)

I basically read U00-09 as a very erudite way of saying "Nu uh!", followed by a veiled non-sequitor.  I could be wrong though.

*shrug

[Vector]

The main reason why we can't say "pedophilia is an orientation" is because you can't discriminate in hiring based on sexual orientation.  This causes a notable problem for people wanting to work in, say, nursery schools.

[kaijyuu]

Well if they're reasonably considered a threat to others they probably shouldn't be on the streets anyway.

If they're not reasonably a threat then... they're not.


Now we can argue what constitutes "reasonable" in this context, but probably not a good idea to do so in this thread.

[wierd]

Indeed-- that wasn't my intention.

Rather just to show that the argument presented in U00-09 has... Issues.

[Helgoland]

I'd think that many pedophiles do not want (on an intellectual level) to do harm - have there been any 'pedophile community' projects? Voluntary separation seems to be a practicable solution - think monastery, but less religious (and with less intercourse, hopefully).

[LordSlowpoke]

Oh, joy. I'm reminded once more that I live in a place that Armok's forgotten.

No, seriously though. You consider that feasible, Helgo? I can only imagine the practically roving hordes of people who would raze that monastery and forcibly castrate everyone, if not straight up murder them, should they hear of that monastery's existence. Wouldn't last a week and might as well be a prison instead.

Vector's post makes me feel like I live on a different planet to hers entirely.

[Helgoland]

A voluntary institution, not a prison - and if you put the right spin on it, it might produce good results. Just put it on an island somewhere...

[Dutchling]

We, finally, have severe misgivings about the inclusion of “Paraphilic Coercive
Disorder” in the appendix. Rape is a crime,
 not a disorder. Such behaviours can, of
course, be understood, but we disagree that such a pattern of behaviour could be
considered a disorder, and we would have grave concerns that such views may offer
a spurious and unscientific defence to a rapist in a criminal trial.

I can't quite find a definition for that (too much psych jargon). Are you guys sure it a synonym for "paedophile"? The only thing I got from Google was "Violent Sexual Predator"...

[MaximumZero]

We, finally, have severe misgivings about the inclusion of “Paraphilic Coercive
Disorder” in the appendix. Rape is a crime,
 not a disorder. Such behaviours can, of
course, be understood, but we disagree that such a pattern of behaviour could be
considered a disorder, and we would have grave concerns that such views may offer
a spurious and unscientific defence to a rapist in a criminal trial.

I can't quite find a definition for that (too much psych jargon). Are you guys sure it a synonym for "paedophile"? The only thing I got from Google was "Violent Sexual Predator"...

They are not looking to make violent sexual predators victims of mental health problems instead of punishing them for their crimes. Hence, "We, finally, have severe misgivings about the inclusion of 'Paraphilic Coercive Disorder' (people who would only enjoy sex through force,) in the appendix." Note: bold added for emphasis.

[Descan]

On the other hand, if being a rapist IS a mental health issue that can be corrected, then actually correcting it rather than wasting resources locking them up would be better in my books.

The victims might not be happy, of course. On the one hand, I'm not a fan of victims justice. I'd rather people be helped to not be the various degrees and kinds of assholes (whether simply stealing to outright murder and rape), and only lock them up if they can't be helped. I don't want someone thrown away for life if they can be helped, because of a victims revenge desire.

On the other hand, a victim of rape is already fragile, psychologically. I don't know exactly what having their rapist "get off scot-free" would do to that. (read: be incarcerated in a mental hospital and medicated/psychiatrist-at/etc. Not free, but not locked in prison)

It's a mess, basically.

Edit: And I don't want some mess about "Mental issues are differences, you can't just fix someone to be what you like!" I don't expect that for a rapist, but it's possible. I'll be the first to admit that there are certainly many different methods of thinking and feeling, not necessarily better or worse than the norm, that are medicated and treated as "disorders". But if that different method of thinking leads you to raping or murdering people, and otherwise disregarding them and hurting them, then I'm not a fan of just going "Well it's just different!"

I'm all for people doing what they want. That includes wanting to not be a victim of some asshole. AND that includes wanting (or needing :/ It's a bit of a slippery slope to include co-ercive therapy, though.) mental help for anti-social, life-ruining issues beyond your control.

[Shakerag]

The main reason why we can't say "pedophilia is an orientation" is because you can't discriminate in hiring based on sexual orientation.  This causes a notable problem for people wanting to work in, say, nursery schools.

So how do we keep those awful lesbians from working in the lingerie departments (where they could be doing bra fittings)?

[MaximumZero]

The main reason why we can't say "pedophilia is an orientation" is because you can't discriminate in hiring based on sexual orientation.  This causes a notable problem for people wanting to work in, say, nursery schools.

So how do we keep those awful lesbians from working in the lingerie departments (where they could be doing bra fittings)?

Whoa, whoa. No comparison there, man. Pedophilia is extremely detrimental to children. That's why sexual misconduct with a child is a felony. You know, a crime that can get you thrown in prison?

[Reelya]

The main reason why we can't say "pedophilia is an orientation" is because you can't discriminate in hiring based on sexual orientation.  This causes a notable problem for people wanting to work in, say, nursery schools.

So how do we keep those awful lesbians from working in the lingerie departments (where they could be doing bra fittings)?

Whoa, whoa. No comparison there, man. Pedophilia is extremely detrimental to children. That's why sexual misconduct with a child is a felony. You know, a crime that can get you thrown in prison?

There's very little data on the proportion of people with child attraction vs the number of those who act on that attraction. e.g. being attracted to "X" quality doesn't automatically mean "rapist tendencies". "Pedophilia" by itself just means the attraction itself (in the scientific literature / dictionary definition as opposed to common usage). Raping someone is a whole leap beyond just thinking they're cute. It's when that is acted on that the harm is done. That distinction is addressed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia

Obviously, we can just take the "common use" definition of pedophilia to only refer people who pose a physical risk to children, and then there is no dispute, they should be kept away from jobs with children. but I would posit there would be a larger group we could define as "attracted to children, but not a rapist asshole" who are basically slipping under the radar right now. Here's a video, interviewing a child abuse specialist in the UK about female pedophiles, who are apparently more common than expected, and like their male counterparts, also gravitate towards jobs with young children. That's a different group slipping under the radar for a different reason - because of gender expectations.