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[Owlbread]

One day he'll see an athletic chap in tight bicycle shorts while he's out with his placards and he'll strain so hard to resist temptation he'll just have an aneurysm then and there.

That's more of an assumption made to weaken the arguments of others. What about homosexuals asking for equality? Are the loudest of them secretly straight?

That doesn't work, I'm sorry. Homosexuals asking for equality are just asking for... equality. They aren't talking about how terrible straight people are and how God hates them.

[Thecard]

One day he'll see an athletic chap in tight bicycle shorts while he's out with his placards and he'll strain so hard to resist temptation he'll just have an aneurysm then and there.

That's more of an assumption made to weaken the arguments of others. What about homosexuals asking for equality? Are the loudest of them secretly straight?

That doesn't work, I'm sorry. Homosexuals asking for equality are just asking for... equality. They aren't talking about how terrible straight people are and how God hates them.

Don't they talk about how horrible homophobic men are? I mean, you're already painting them (and religion) in a negative light.
I do think homophobic people are kinda terrible. Really, anyone who believes less of another person that way is terrible.

But I'm sorry, bigots are just bigots.

[Owlbread]

Don't they talk about how horrible homophobic men are? I mean, you're already painting them (and religion) in a negative light.
I do think homophobic people are kinda terrible. Really, anyone who believes less of another person that way is terrible.

But I'm sorry, bigots are just bigots.

But homosexuals asking loudly for equality aren't bigots. I don't understand where you're coming from there.

If you can show me some straight-hating homosexuals who are as vocal as the Westboro Baptist Church, who do say very often that God hates gays and that they are proud that Gay soldiers have been killed and that they will burn in hell and so forth (hence my reference to the whole "God hates gays" thing), then by all means we can use that as a comparison. "Loudly asking for equality" on the other hand isn't the same as being a bigot. Rather... it's the opposite.

What do you think "equality" is?

[Sirus]

Don't they talk about how horrible homophobic men are? I mean, you're already painting them (and religion) in a negative light.
I do think homophobic people are kinda terrible. Really, anyone who believes less of another person that way is terrible.

But I'm sorry, bigots are just bigots.

But homosexuals asking loudly for equality aren't bigots. I don't understand where you're coming from there.

If you can show me some straight-hating homosexuals who are as vocal as the Westboro Baptist Church, who do say very often that God hates gays and that they are proud that Gay soldiers have been killed and that they will burn in hell and so forth (hence my reference to the whole "God hates gays" thing), then by all means we can use that as a comparison. "Loudly asking for equality" on the other hand isn't the same as being a bigot. Rather... it's the opposite.

What do you think "equality" is?

It's not even gay soldiers being killed that they're happy about. They protest at soldier's funerals, as well as those of a variety of other people (including children) because they feel that the reason those people died is because the United States is too accepting of homosexuality and thus is being punished.

[scrdest]

Don't they talk about how horrible homophobic men are? I mean, you're already painting them (and religion) in a negative light.
I do think homophobic people are kinda terrible. Really, anyone who believes less of another person that way is terrible.

But I'm sorry, bigots are just bigots.

But homosexuals asking loudly for equality aren't bigots. I don't understand where you're coming from there.

If you can show me some straight-hating homosexuals who are as vocal as the Westboro Baptist Church, who do say very often that God hates gays and that they are proud that Gay soldiers have been killed and that they will burn in hell and so forth (hence my reference to the whole "God hates gays" thing), then by all means we can use that as a comparison. "Loudly asking for equality" on the other hand isn't the same as being a bigot. Rather... it's the opposite.

What do you think "equality" is?

Eh, there are some straight-haters, if there wasn't there wouldn't be a Het is Ew trope. I guess it's just that if you're homosexual and a bigot, it's easier to hit other people's tolerance limit than if you're a straight bigot. Also, since most churches don't accept anyone overtly gay and there are people who wouldn't vote for a gay politician, they have less opportunity to be vocal about their bigotry.

It's kinda like the situation with racism: there are both white supremacists and black supremacists, but the former have more recognition.

[Owlbread]

Eh, there are some straight-haters, if there wasn't there wouldn't be a Het is Ew trope. I guess it's just that if you're homosexual and a bigot, it's easier to hit other people's tolerance limit than if you're a straight bigot.

It's more that there really isn't a known equivalent to the Westboro Baptist Church in the gay community. There are straight-haters but they are nowhere near their level, or indeed the level of those who carry out hate crimes on LGBT people.

Also, since most churches don't accept anyone overtly gay and there are people who wouldn't vote for a gay politician, they have less opportunity to be vocal about their bigotry.

Most churches I know do, you'd just turn a few heads. There'd be people who weren't happy about it, that's for certain, but they'd be skeletonised like a water buffalo in a river full of piranhas if the media caught wind of it. Rightly so.

It's kinda like the situation with racism: there are both white supremacists and black supremacists, but the former have more recognition.

Because there tend to be more white supremacists than there are black supremacists. They are also more influential in general and hold a bigger public profile.

This is quite a diversion. I suddenly understand where some feminists are coming from where discussions about sexism suddenly become inundated with men saying "but it happens to us too!" I know sexism happens to us, female on male sexism does exist and I have seen it happen. It is an ugly thing and should not be a part of our society and any women participating in it should be ashamed of themselves.

That doesn't change however that women experience the most sexism in their daily lives because, unfortunately, male on female sexism is far more prevalent and in some respects worse. It doesn't mean we should ignore female on male sexism but for god's sake let conversations discussing the male on female stuff at least take place without all the "me, me, me!". It's frustrating that our problem gets ignored but just make a point of bringing it up yourself, don't hijack someone else's conversation.

[scrdest]

Also, since most churches don't accept anyone overtly gay and there are people who wouldn't vote for a gay politician, they have less opportunity to be vocal about their bigotry.

Most churches I know do, you'd just turn a few heads. There'd be people who weren't happy about it, that's for certain, but they'd be skeletonised like a water buffalo in a river full of piranhas if the media caught wind of it. Rightly so.

Overtly. As in 'Praise Jesus, oh and also I'm gay'.

It's kinda like the situation with racism: there are both white supremacists and black supremacists, but the former have more recognition.

Because there tend to be more white supremacists than there are black supremacists. They are also more influential in general.

My point exactly. Both exist, but one side is far more visible.

[Owlbread]

Overtly. As in 'Praise Jesus, oh and also I'm gay'.

Yes, that. You'd have to be brave to attempt it but there are a number of gays in the Christian community who may be bold enough to go to Church, and those who do would probably be accepted. They may face opposition with respect to gay marriage but they won't be thrown out or spat on or something.

My point exactly. Both exist, but one side is far more visible.

Because they are more numerous and more influential/powerful, it's not just a question of visibility.

[scrdest]

My point exactly. Both exist, but one side is far more visible.

Because they are more numerous and more influential/powerful, it's not just a question of visibility.

That's what I meant by 'visible'. There's more of them, they have more power, so you notice them more.

[Jack_Bread]

I missed an important "appointment" today that would've gotten me some money.
I was going to use this money to help my brother pay for a our storage unit. I don't know when he's supposed to pay it.
I went to try and get this money last week, but the place was closed. Then I tried on friday and I was told to come back on monday around 8 am.
But I missed it because I forgot about it over the weekend. Fuck.
If I can't help my brother with this money, our storage unit is going to get auctioned off. I don't want to lose our stuff...

[Mr Space Cat]

In my obsessive manner of thinking about my life situation, I think some of my problem is that whenever I pump myself up to go outside, I'm always doing it with the express purpose of changing my life situation to be less lonely. In this way, I'm also jinxing myself in that now everything in my mind is super forced and brutal: I can't think of anything but how much I need to work to get myself up to where a normal person is, I need to ignore any happy couples I see, every missed opportunity to speak to someone is an inexcusable abject failure in my mind even when nothing happens. Even the failure to think positive is considered a meta-failure, in my mind. What I set out to do, that is socialize, is utterly impossible in these conditions.

Bit late to the party here.

You sound like me, only replace "be less lonely" with "be more productive and creative and actually do music shit for once that comes out great the first time" and you get the same idea. Pretty much over-analysis at everything I'm doing wrong, which in this case is everything that I'm doing that isn't an active effort to write and record music, which is everything. Video games, eating, schoolwork, everything, even if I have no control over whether I'm doing the "waste of time" or not.

so all these mental calculations of how much I suck make me feel bad, then I start doing the same analysis of how my feeling bad makes me suck more because everyone else doesn't do that and everyone else is happy and you see where this is going. It's a loop of "you suck" and it isn't very constructive or helpful.

So, speaking from personal experience here, you're probably being a bit too hard on yourself. Stop being so hard on yourself, only I can be that hard on myself. 

*that's a self-demonstrating article and a self-deprecating sarcastic joke all rolled into one.*

[misko27]

Overtly. As in 'Praise Jesus, oh and also I'm gay'.

Yes, that. You'd have to be brave to attempt it but there are a number of gays in the Christian community who may be bold enough to go to Church, and those who do would probably be accepted. They may face opposition with respect to gay marriage but they won't be thrown out or spat on or something.

It is totally a question of the Church. Try that in, most churches, and that is what you get. Try that in, say, Certain southern denominations, and you may well be kicked out. There are numerous ones that actually have blessings for same-sex unions, Episcopals, Quakers, The Religious left in general.


I have to agree with Owlbread that there are bigots on both sides, it's just that the old bigots are entrenched and more powerful. I, for one, long for a day where white and black supremacists, straight and LGBT bigots, and everyone else can all be equally powerless and ignored.

I missed an important "appointment" today that would've gotten me some money.
I was going to use this money to help my brother pay for a our storage unit. I don't know when he's supposed to pay it.
I went to try and get this money last week, but the place was closed. Then I tried on friday and I was told to come back on monday around 8 am.
But I missed it because I forgot about it over the weekend. Fuck.
If I can't help my brother with this money, our storage unit is going to get auctioned off. I don't want to lose our stuff...

Oh god yeah, I remember the fear involved with that. Geez, all hopes got out to you. Although I wonder about that "appointment".

[Vector]

Like MSH said - would you love someone if he started committing atrocities? If one day, he woke up and decided that from now on, he will begin every day with torturing a kitten to death?

The thing I don't understand here--the thing I really don't understand--is why the people in this conversation don't seem to think "emotionally abusing a person to a point of nearly killing themselves" is an atrocity.

[Xantalos]

Like MSH said - would you love someone if he started committing atrocities? If one day, he woke up and decided that from now on, he will begin every day with torturing a kitten to death?

The thing I don't understand here--the thing I really don't understand--is why the people in this conversation don't seem to think "emotionally abusing a person to a point of nearly killing themselves" is an atrocity.

Wait wat.
I haven't been following it, but could I have some context here?

[Vector]

Like MSH said - would you love someone if he started committing atrocities? If one day, he woke up and decided that from now on, he will begin every day with torturing a kitten to death?

The thing I don't understand here--the thing I really don't understand--is why the people in this conversation don't seem to think "emotionally abusing a person to a point of nearly killing themselves" is an atrocity.

Wait wat.
I haven't been following it, but could I have some context here?

They keep on saying "but your unconditional love could not possibly stand for a person who committed an atrocity," despite my having revealed that I have an abiding care for the wellbeing of someone who nearly drove me to suicide.  Therefore that person's actions must not constitute an atrocity.