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[Catsup]

I used to think that way when I was younger and still do to some extent, but I have since seen way too many cases of emotional manipulation via suicide threat, especially in abusive relationships.  I wouldn't just assume that's the intent, but if you have good reason to believe that someone is doing this to be manipulative, then they should be treated as toxic.  The alternative is allowing the person to terrorize and dominate everyone around them with reckless abandon theater that will never end so long as it continues to be effective for them.

legitimate suicide attempt or not i think we can agree that its best to avoid relationships with emotionally unstable/suicidal ppl altogether until they can fix themselves.

[Catsup]

i think suicide depends on the amount of emotional pain a person can handle, if they can just resist the pain (and suicide) until they can start reasoning with themselves then theyre in the clear.

No, that assumes that one's reasoning won't become fundamentally corrupted.

i understand what youre saying, but i dont think there is a way for rationality to become corrupted if you are reasonably well-developed mentally from a young age.

im talking about objective rationality here, not subjective feelings.

[misko27]

i think suicide depends on the amount of emotional pain a person can handle, if they can just resist the pain (and suicide) until they can start reasoning with themselves then theyre in the clear.

No, that assumes that one's reasoning won't become fundamentally corrupted.

Dis.


For me, I decided that I was the problem.

I can see what you're thinking. No matter how hard something is, you CAN tough it out, if you keep yourself together.  The problem is simple. It robs you of your rationality. It robs you of the parts that go, objectively, "can we not tough it out?". Because it convinces you that you are the root of the problem. Using your own logic, it takes your built up notions, and brings you down. For me at least, it was due to the fact that many of the things I was going through was my fault (although, by no means all), so it wasn't a matter of toughing it out, because, at the end of the day, even if the I stemmed the tide of terrible things happening, I would still suck, and it would therefore happen again. A sinking feeling.

[Catsup]

I can see what you're thinking. No matter how hard something is, you CAN tough it out, if you keep yourself together.  The problem is simple. It robs you of your rationality. It robs you of the parts that go, objectively, "can we not tough it out?". Because it convinces you that you are the root of the problem. For me at least, it was due to the fact that many of the things I was going through was my fault (although, by no means all), so it wasn't a matter of toughing it out, because, at the end of the day, even if the I stemmed the tide of terrible things happening, I felt I would still be a pathetic waste of a human being, and it would therefore happen again.

if you are convinced that you are the root of the problem, then convince yourself that you will do whatever it takes to make things right again, and to make sure that the problem will never appear again.

to control your irrational feelings you need a deep understanding of yourself and why you are feeling this way, talk to yourself a bit at a time, sidestepping the surge of feelings any way you can when it becomes too much. You should eventually be able to make peace with yourself.

[Vector]

i understand what youre saying, but i dont think there is a way for rationality to become corrupted if you are reasonably well-developed mentally from a young age.

im talking about objective rationality here, not subjective feelings.

True objective rationality can only come from total annihilation of the perceiving self.

if you are convinced that you are the root of the problem, then convince yourself that you will do whatever it takes to make things right again, and to make sure that the problem will never appear again.

to control your irrational feelings you need a deep understanding of yourself and why you are feeling this way, talk to yourself a bit at a time, sidestepping the surge of feelings any way you can when it becomes too much. You should eventually be able to make peace with yourself.

. . . Look, honestly bro, this is kind of insulting.

[Trapezohedron]

i understand what youre saying, but i dont think there is a way for rationality to become corrupted if you are reasonably well-developed mentally from a young age.

im talking about objective rationality here, not subjective feelings.

True objective rationality can only come from total annihilation of the perceiving self.

if you are convinced that you are the root of the problem, then convince yourself that you will do whatever it takes to make things right again, and to make sure that the problem will never appear again.

to control your irrational feelings you need a deep understanding of yourself and why you are feeling this way, talk to yourself a bit at a time, sidestepping the surge of feelings any way you can when it becomes too much. You should eventually be able to make peace with yourself.

. . . Look, honestly bro, this is kind of insulting.

It's honestly a black-and-white view of suicidal emotions. As if an irrational mind could easily convince oneself to think rationally and find the root of the problem. No, you'd spend a lot of time thinking about your screw ups, how it went wrong and not thinking about how you could fix it.

Nobody can "sidestep" feelings if they are crushed. Plus, objective rationality? It doesn't apply when you're despairing.

[Max White]

True objective rationality can only come from total annihilation of the perceiving self.

I really like this quote.
If I were a sigging man, I would have sug that.

[Catsup]

True objective rationality can only come from total annihilation of the perceiving self.

im not sure then, i guess some ppl just fall apart easier than others. Putting it as "objective rationality" was a mistake on my part, i really meant "wholesome subjective rationality". I really cant imagine anything that would tear me up enough for me to lose my "wholesome subjective rationality" so please do share, PM me if you must.

. . . Look, honestly bro, this is kind of insulting.

i dont know why it is insulting, please do not relate any personal experiences to this discussion.

often the person suffering is not at fault at all but believes that they are, it is up to themselves to fix that by either making things right or realizing they were never wrong in the first place.

[Glowcat]

i understand what youre saying, but i dont think there is a way for rationality to become corrupted if you are reasonably well-developed mentally from a young age.

im talking about objective rationality here, not subjective feelings.

to control your irrational feelings you need a deep understanding of yourself and why you are feeling this way, talk to yourself a bit at a time, sidestepping the surge of feelings any way you can when it becomes too much. You should eventually be able to make peace with yourself.

I suspect from these quotes that you don't understand what actually happens during periods of suicidal ideation. The rational mind is overwhelmed by a flood of despair and your only answer to when people can't handle that seems to be that they're fundamentally broken or mentally weak. That's not very helpful. Even as somebody who does largely fight off suicidal thoughts with reason, reason by itself is insufficient because my brain is operating at an emotional level and rather than helping, my reasoning tends to favor the suicidal action route and it always seems to make some damn good arguments at the time. Because I can't be properly objective I repeat to myself that my reasoning ability is tainted and that I shouldn't act upon my feelings but that's primarily an emotional defense. And sometimes I only barely hang on.

[Vector]

True objective rationality can only come from total annihilation of the perceiving self.

I really like this quote.
If I were a sigging man, I would have sug that.

Why, thank you!

i dont know why it is insulting, please do not relate any personal experiences to this discussion.

. . . Wha?

[Catsup]

I suspect from these quotes that you don't understand what actually happens during periods of suicidal ideation. The rational mind is overwhelmed by a flood of despair and your only answer to when people can't handle that seems to be that they're fundamentally broken or mentally weak.

and im arguing now that rarely would even the most tragic events be able to drive the mind of a relatively normal person into the suicidal state for a prolonged period of time before they are able to calm themselves down and fix themselves.

[Putnam]

i dont know why it is insulting, please do not relate any personal experiences to this discussion.

Because your argument is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the suicidal mindset and blames the victim.

[Xantalos]

What's even being discussed? I'm kinda confused as to what you're all talking about.

[Catsup]

i dont know why it is insulting, please do not relate any personal experiences to this discussion.

. . . Wha?

im trying very hard to distinguish between feeling and thought, you are weak if you allow emotion to control you rather than reason. If you really must, then write down a strict code of rules you find "reasonable" for yourself to follow under the circumstance that you might lose this "reason" and become suicidal.

[Trapezohedron]

i dont know why it is insulting, please do not relate any personal experiences to this discussion.

. . . Wha?

Suicide is a personal thing. What is with this "no relation to personal experience" bull?