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[Xantalos]

Well, good luck in life, then.

[Vector]

NOTE: What follows is a rant about religion and Christianity.  You may not want to read it; I don't see how what I say here could incite a flame war, but I thought I would give a warning anyway.

I've done some more research and I think I've come to the conclusion that I just don't understand organized religion, as a fundamental thing.  I am a theist (I can't even call myself a deist anymore, apparently, thanks to restrictions I hadn't known about).  I read my texts and remember them.  I spend a lot of time praying and meditating and whatever.  I respect the practice of other people's churches when I am in them.  I really don't enjoy debating stuff with movement atheists.  All of this came upon me because of some spiritual experiences through the past five years or so.

But I cannot for the life of me understand the "stay away from that person, they're going to hell" thing, because it seems like human division is a state of hell on earth; and I can't understand the "do not celebrate" thing, since I thought we were supposed to enjoy the planet anyway (except when we're being ascetics); and I can't understand why it has to be "holy water," because clean water is pretty fantastic anyway; and I don't understand the admonishing nature of many religions; and I don't understand why people think it's a ceremony or legal paper that makes people married, because if God is omniscient or just universal then the couple is always standing before God in a state of increasing union anyway, so what does that have to do with anything.

And why must old Books, though excellent in some of their features and profound in their poetry, be seen as perfect and infallible if everything on earth is made mortal and corruptible including the "son of God?"  If I have spiritual experiences but do not join a church, is that supposed to mean that I have not heard God but the devil because any true theist would join a flock?  And in any case, how do you know if it is God or the devil or the mutterings of your own recalcitrant brain that you have heard--ask a priest?  How does he know?  Because he asked a priest?  But how did he know--because he is a priest, thus rendered automagically knowledgeable?  Then why do we have a notion of laicization at all--and how does "priestly character" get confirmed, anyway?  If it doesn't need to be empirically confirmed, then I should be able to know this stuff all on my own, given enough contemplation and humble sincerity!  I need to be confirmed by churches because I am not Jesus, you say?  But how did folks know Jesus was Jesus and why do we believe what those folks told us?

*throws hands in the air*

See, I bet that I'm not even arguing against things that are what folks actually believe.  There's so many flavors of what is believed, and everyone calls everyone else "not a true ______."  Can't even talk about this stuff because you could spend a lifetime arguing about meanings and terms, which is why I am starting from square 0.

I don't really know what to say.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

In the end, most of your complaints come down to tradition. It is how it is how it is how we say it is because it is, no questions allowed or suffer in eternal hellfire.

What is a movement atheist? I ask because I don't think I've ever heard that exact term before.

[Vector]

Folks who believe in atheism as a movement whose end moral goal is to stamp out all theism, as it is seen as a fundamental evil.  Period.

[Descan]

Pretty much all of that is about control. Both good, "Don't eat the pig, for it is unclean! (when really it'll just kill you with bacteria)", and bad, "We need more babehs! Homoseks is bad!", and indifferent/just weird, "Don't mix fabric! Or rotate crops! (Seriously, what is this about?)" You can't expect dumb peasants to know all the details, so if it's a cultural thing they grow up in it, and do the things that will keep them alive without knowing why. Same thing has been documented in Indian and Pacific islanders and peasants, the women in the villages will avoid certain foods that lead to higher miscarriages without knowing "Why", just "it has always been done", or "it is magic!", or some sort of explanation that's not really an explanation, just something to fill in the gaps that human brains NEED to have filled and let them get on with their day/lives, without expending too much energy that they need to survive to find out exactly what's going on.

And the infallibility is to prevent pretty dumb bronze-age peasants from asking "WHY is the pig unclean?" and dying of... cholera, or whatever it is that pigs have. Whatever, you get the idea.

The priest bit is probably more control, pretty obvious that, though HOW it could be control beyond "HAHA I GOT POWER" I don't know. Maybe it just IS about the power, though why people go along with it in the beginning I don't know.

Not so necessary now, average level of education has gone up, pigs and such have become less "THIS WILL KILL YOU", population is huge so no need for babehs so much, and it's kind of like an old man on the end of the street yelling "I'm RELEVANT, damn it! Listen to me!"

[Truean]

Vector.

You're trying to use reason with something that by definition doesn't have a thing to do with being reasonable. All religion doesn't go off reason; it goes off faith. The idea that any person would die and rise up three days later, part the red sea, turn one fish magically into many, have bread fall from heaven, achieve nirvana/enlightenment, fought through hades to rescue dead loved ones, performed miracles, have candles burn longer than there is fuel to sustain their flame, dance to destroy and recreate the world, declare the sacred nature of cows as the holiest of all animals, or any number of things doesn't add up in logic with what we know about the universe.

That said, why would you necessarily expect the structure these beliefs are administered under to be reasonable? It's about what people believe, not what "makes sense."

It's about a communal shared belief system. Personally, I don't get it myself, but that's about as close to an answer as I believe there is.

For what it's worth (admittedly not much) I have long had my own problems with religion, what with my being an abomination and all.

[Devling]

Man, I'm an atheist and those people give us bad names.
Just like Fundys give religious people bad names.

Anyway, yeah tradition. People tend to retain knowledge that they are told when they are kids.

[Descan]

For what it's worth (admittedly not much) I have long had my own problems with religion, what with my being an abomination and all.

Abomination-five!

* Descan raises a dark, writhing tentacle with a sensible bracelet and a nice wrist-sleeve accompaniment.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Folks who believe in atheism as a movement whose end moral goal is to stamp out all theism, as it is seen as a fundamental evil.  Period.

Huh. I don't know if I qualify for that or not. I do think that theism will mostly die off, but as a result of growing secularism and scientific understanding, not any intentional action.

Pretty much all of that is about control. Both good, "Don't eat the pig, for it is unclean! (when really it'll just kill you with bacteria)",

It isn't about bacteria. Pigs don't carry significantly more bacteria than any other animal. What they do use is much more water, which was at a premium in areas where Judaism and Islam flourished. Christianity, moved to the much better-watered Europe, did not suffer this restriction and thus did not maintain the taboo.

[Descan]

Huh. I thought pigs were more likely to have bacteria in them that isn't killed off in the cooking process until that was fixed in the last 50-75 years.

Either way, my points stand! >:C

[Vector]

Perhaps because I feel like there is some... I dunno, sense of awe that appears to be widespread to human beings who have lived a particular while.  "This all happened!  How fantastic!  I'm a living being!"  And I would understand this sense of grandeur in miniature things to be the whisperings of a god, if you like--the moments at which a human being could safely scrape up against divinity.

But at the same time, I don't understand why with one side of the mouth a person could say "I am open and forgiving and humble" and with the other side of the mouth a person could say "You are going to burn in hell for all eternity even though you haven't broken any of the things we both know to be sins." (you know, obvious moral wrongs)

Hell, Truean, I'm also an abomination, I guess, and have indeed been told as much.

Atheism is also a leap of faith (if a smaller one?), and most people interact with the scientific community in the same way that they interact with a priesthood.  I don't know what to say.

Folks who believe in atheism as a movement whose end moral goal is to stamp out all theism, as it is seen as a fundamental evil.  Period.

Huh. I don't know if I qualify for that or not. I do think that theism will mostly die off, but as a result of growing secularism and scientific understanding, not any intentional action.

Yeah, you'd probably know if you were one.  Movements atheists proselytize and argue much like the more irritating religious folks with whom I'm familiar (so, if you drop that you're a believer of any stripe in a conversation, such a person would consider it his responsibility to divest you of your faith then and there).

I guess, it's sort of like materialists who get angry at you if you prefer not to own as much stuff or to go without, especially as any sort of religious asceticism or whatever; I've run into those, too.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Atheism is also a leap of faith (if a smaller one?), and most people interact with the scientific community in the same way that they interact with a priesthood.  I don't know what to say.

I'd dispute this, but we already had this argument, albeit about three years ago.

[Max White]

Atheism is also a leap of faith

If atheism, that is not believing in a god, is a leap of faith... What is one who has no faith?

[Devling]

I don't say I'm an atheist in the sense that I wilfully deny religion or faith.
It's just a lack of any feeling that god/higher entities exist. I know this is probably depressing for a lot of people, but I guess I just internalized it. Like I said, you accept things when you are a kid.

Anyway, what constitutes an abomination?

Atheism is also a leap of faith

If atheism, that is not believing in a god, is a leap of faith... What is one who has no faith?

A rock. You have to have a little faith, to accept that what you see is reality. And what you feel is real.

[Max White]

Well... I meant in terms of a god. Specifically in the content of religion, what is one with no faith?