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[kaijyuu]

Kaijyuu, you've declared yourself a moral relativist, yes?

Indeed, but I still have my moral convictions. I don't expect others to agree, but my morality centers on harm; a victim is necessary for something to be morally bad. There's obviously a victim in this situation.

We're not as far apart on the issue as it seems. I simply draw the line in a different place on the rights of parents vs. the rights of the child.

I'm afraid I don't believe any parent has the right to irrevocably damage their child's body.

[FearfulJesuit]

Kaijyuu, you've declared yourself a moral relativist, yes?

Indeed, but I still have my moral convictions. I don't expect others to agree, but my morality centers on harm; a victim is necessary for something to be morally bad. There's obviously a victim in this situation.

OK, but then

-either you forsake your ability to condemn members of other cultures on the basis of harm, thus can pass no judgement on circumcision, or
-you view harm as a universal basis for a moral system, thus are not a moral relativist.

Right?

[Lord Shonus]

That's the line I mean. You draw the rights of the parent much more constricted than I do to expand the rights of the child. I draw it in the other direction.

[penguinofhonor]

Oh, and I'm also disappointed that once again one of these emotion threads has gone off-topic. Then again it is an emotion thread and sometimes people let their emotions get the best of them. I'm not meaning to imply anything disrespectful or malign but I am kind of sick and tired of seeing these threads go off-topic at least once or twice a day.

Not that anything has to change, but it would be nice if irrelevant and nonsensical thinking was purged from these kinds of threads. I apologize if I offend anyone with this kind of thinking I myself am having but I personally believe that honesty is the best policy.

Hm, I'd tend to disagree but I can see where you're coming from. While I like discussion, often I think these threads get into a state where someone posting something happy/sad/angry just gets ignored because everyone is preoccupied with the derail.

[kaijyuu]

Kaijyuu, you've declared yourself a moral relativist, yes?

Indeed, but I still have my moral convictions. I don't expect others to agree, but my morality centers on harm; a victim is necessary for something to be morally bad. There's obviously a victim in this situation.

OK, but then

-either you forsake your ability to condemn members of other cultures on the basis of harm, thus can pass no judgement on circumcision, or
-you view harm as a universal basis for a moral system, thus are not a moral relativist.

Right?

Nay. When I say I'm a moral relativist, I admit that my morality centers on an axiom that not everyone else necessarily agrees with. My axioms result in "universal" laws, but assuming another person does not carry said axioms, then the only possible resolution between us is to agree to disagree.

I don't forsake my ability to condemn other cultures, only admit that they might laugh at my logic and that it's very possible that no logical compromise in my favor can be reached.

That's the line I mean. You draw the rights of the parent much more constricted than I do to expand the rights of the child. I draw it in the other direction.

I could go on a whole "parental rights" spew and how I think that such "rights" only exist out of necessity/practicality, but that would derail the thread even more and people are already complaining I'll post in the progressive thread if you want.

[Lord Shonus]

Not really. I tend to avoid arguments where moral relativism is even a thing, since my moral absolutism is the only thing keeping me from trying to take over the world.

[kaijyuu]

Okie dokie~

[dei]

Oh, and I'm also disappointed that once again one of these emotion threads has gone off-topic. Then again it is an emotion thread and sometimes people let their emotions get the best of them. I'm not meaning to imply anything disrespectful or malign but I am kind of sick and tired of seeing these threads go off-topic at least once or twice a day.

Not that anything has to change, but it would be nice if irrelevant and nonsensical thinking was purged from these kinds of threads. I apologize if I offend anyone with this kind of thinking I myself am having but I personally believe that honesty is the best policy.

Hm, I'd tend to disagree but I can see where you're coming from. While I like discussion, often I think these threads get into a state where someone posting something happy/sad/angry just gets ignored because everyone is preoccupied with the derail.

Off-topic, but it makes me happy that you see where I'm coming from. I appreciate it.

On-topic: after remembering that dream I had while I was napping I felt kind of sad that I still haven't gotten a chance to make amends with my younger brother, even after seven years of being disowned by him. I still kind of feel regretful about getting him suspended and breaking his perfect attendence record but what are you going to do? He lives several towns away from me and wants nothing to do with me.

I miss my younger brother. He was kind of cool and we had a lot of fun together growing up - even if he was also one of the people that beat me up on a regular basis and is part of the reason I have Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. I want to get past that like I did with my mother and be family with him again but I don't think I will ever get the chance to do that. That makes me sad.

[misko27]

Loud whispers,

Spoiler:  Rant regarding Female Genital Mutilation, somewhat off topic to current matter. (click to show/hide)

Just because something is wrong does not make it equivalent to all wrong
things ever. Note this bay12, Republicans != Fascism.  US Regulation laws != Chinese
Regulations. SOPA != 1984.
 
It's entirely and completely different. It's even being endorsed in some places in africa because of it's health benefits. female Genital Mutilation is entirely different, was and has not ever been considered acceptable in many places. In addition, it is more a issue relating to females, feminisim, Gender roles, and Virginity then anything approaching the religious versus ethical arguments here here. Few have banned Circumcision. Female Genital Mutilation is a crime, and only practiced in backwaters. Finally, WHO describes FGM as a horrific practice, Circumcision as one that helps stop
aids.
 
It's different. Please stop thinking so much in absolutes. FGM actually threatens the life of a female. Cicumcision, is rather obviously, fairly common. This is all I have to contribute to the conversation. Also, keep in mind I in general am opposed to circumcision Just not in the same way I am opposed to FGM. I can live knowing People are circumcized. FGM is simply evil. Not even a Muslim practice, its more common in african tribes to the south. Barbaric, Patriarchal, Most common reason being making it too painful to have Extra-marital sex.

Anyway, I am opposed to having my Children Circumcized, and would advise a friend against it, but I'm fine with the existance of it. Also, I am pretty much  mostly Moral absolutism, further cementing the idea that I am the anti-kaijyuu.

[kaijyuu]

I am the anti-kaijyuu.

Woohoo, I have an archnemesis!

[Loud Whispers]

Just because something is wrong does not make it equivalent to all wrong things ever.

That's a pretty big assumption you've made right there. An unfair one too. If something is wrong, it's wrong because it's wrong. Not because something else is just as bad or worse.
 

It's entirely and completely different. It's even being endorsed in some places in africa because of it's health benefits.

*In the undeveloped world. Endorsement correlates to religious saturation in society.

female Genital Mutilation is entirely different, was and has not ever been considered acceptable in many places.

See above. I didn't say it was the same thing and it's insulting really. The issue here is that you are mutilating someone's body without their consent or their understanding that they're removing 20,000 nerve endings from their sex.

In addition, it is more a issue relating to females, feminisim, Gender roles, and Virginity then anything approaching the religious versus ethical arguments here here. Few have banned Circumcision.

The government doesn't set moral standards, and we need not go on about double standards either.

It's different. Please stop thinking so much in absolutes.

Ah the rage, it is full circle now. I never think in absolutes. Never.

Cicumcision, is rather obviously, fairly common.

I also happen to know that there are some friends of mine who would have rather not have their foreskin cut off. But they had no say in that of course.

Now because what has started as me trying to state my opinion has turned into my entire morality being taken into question,
Misko,
My point is babies shouldn't have their fucking foreskin cut off because their parents say so.
They should be able to give full consent when they are of legal age to do so, because such a procedure will affect their entire future sex life and potentially harm them. Because as with the studies that say it's absolutely benign, there are those which say it's unnecessary and there are those which say it has a long list of adverse effects.
Ahem.

[Korbac]

I am the anti-kaijyuu.

Woohoo, I have an archnemesis!

Can I still get on with both of you or is that STRICTLY FORBIDDEN?

[kaijyuu]

We can still be buddies if you're buddies with Misko, if that's what you mean~

[Descan]

I am the anti-kaijyuu.

Woohoo, I have an archnemesis!

More like an anti-particle. Don't touch him, you might die! And destroy the earth, too...

[misko27]

My point is that it's comparign Fucking Apples to Oranges. Yes, Circumcision is bad, NO, it is not on the same scale as female genital mutilation. I've never even heard of that view point before, hence teh rage.
He's a source
http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2012/jul/29/the-big-issue-male-circumcision
And here's some highlights from Wikiepedia

FGM is considered by its practitioners to be an essential part of raising a girl properly—girls are regarded as having been cleansed by the removal of "male" body parts. It ensures pre-marital virginity and inhibits extra-marital sex, because it reduces women's libido. Women fear the pain of re-opening the vagina, and are afraid of being discovered if it is opened illicitly.

Judaism requires circumcision for boys, but does not allow it for girls.^[23] Islamic scholars have said that, while male circumcision is a sunna, or religious obligation, female genital modification is not required, and several have issued a fatwa against Type III FGM

According to Amnesty, in certain societies women who have not had the procedure are regarded as too unclean to handle food and water, and there is a belief that a woman's genitals might continue to grow without FGM, until they dangle between her legs. Some groups see the clitoris as dangerous, capable of killing a man if his penis touches it, or a baby if the head comes into contact with it during birth, though Amnesty cautions that ideas about the power of the clitoris can be found elsewhere.^[28] Gynaecologists in England and the United States would remove it during the 19th century to "cure" insanity, masturbation, and nymphomania.^[29] The first reported clitoridectomy in the West was carried out in 1822 by a surgeon in Berlin on a teenage girl regarded as an "imbecile" who was masturbating.

Not. The. Same. It's done on PUBESCENTS in many places. It's a actual CRIME in the US, and Britain, mind you. It was even groudns for allowing Political Asylum on grounds of persecution. Comparitevely, FGM is extensive surgery, you can remove the Fore-skin simply by tying a damn string around it for three days. It isn't at all about parental rights or religion. It is a women's issue. It is done for the purpose of dogmatic patriarchalism. "She won't cheat if I cut it off!" Is what it boils down to.

I am the anti-kaijyuu.

Woohoo, I have an archnemesis!

More like an anti-particle. Don't touch him, you might die! And destroy the earth, too...

*poke*