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[kaijyuu]

I guess the heart of the matter is this: Does our social contract allow one person to tell someone else that they shouldn't do something, if they find it offensive or distressing? Where do we draw that distinction?

In a word, no. There's no distinction to be drawn as so long as it's not hurting anyone, it's no on else's business.

But as Pnx said, there's a little thing called obscenity. You're fully within your right to get disgusted/etc. They have a right to get off on whatever they want; they also have an obligation to not gross other people out due to courtesy.

The two basic rules to always follow in situations like this:
1) Don't judge people for liking media you don't like.
2) Don't judge people for not liking media you like.

Note that in neither rule does it state you have to like it, accept it, etc. Just hate the media, not the person who likes it.

[Nadaka]

I am G.A.L. for a child who has been abused in especially heinous ways. Said child hates me for "taking [them] away from their family."

Unfortunately that is how it is for kids. Family is all they know, and even if they know you are doing the right thing it still hurts to lose family. I know I loved my father and was upset when he was sent away even though one of my biggest regrets is that I didn't have the strength to put a bullet in his head.

[The Merchant Of Menace]

Nothing made me happier than finding out my parents were back behind bars. I hope they never get out, too.

[Solifuge]

I guess the heart of the matter is this: Does our social contract allow one person to tell someone else that they shouldn't do something, if they find it offensive or distressing? Where do we draw that distinction?

In a word, no. There's no distinction to be drawn as so long as it's not hurting anyone, it's no on else's business.

But as Pnx said, there's a little thing called obscenity. You're fully within your right to get disgusted/etc. They have a right to get off on whatever they want; they also have an obligation to not gross other people out due to courtesy.

Lets say we were talking about media that has been digitally edited to portray a young child in a sexual situation with an adult. Not only are people generally disgusted by it, but even though it doesn't affect any children directly, it portrays something that society agrees is wrong; child pornography. So wrong, in fact, that we have created laws that prohibit the creation, distribution, and ownership of it. That's drawing a line, and it's a line I feel needs to be drawn... not to keep people from finding happiness, but because that's not a healthy or acceptable way for them to seek it, either for the person in question or for others in their community.

The two basic rules to always follow in situations like this:
1) Don't judge people for liking media you don't like.
2) Don't judge people for not liking media you like.

Note that in neither rule does it state you have to like it, accept it, etc. Just hate the media, not the person who likes it.

I don't dislike people for what they like, but I find it perfectly acceptable to dislike the things themselves. Moreover, if I cared for or regularly interacted with someone who is exhibiting a behavior I strongly disagree with (say, looking at Child Pornography), I feel it's my obligation to take them aside, explain why I feel that what they're doing is wrong, listen to their side of the story, and help the both of us come to an understanding. I get a similar feeling when I catch a glimpse at some fetishistic artwork as well; that some fetishes are signs of a dysfunction, and if they are as I suspect, I'd like to help the people who make/view them to find a healthy way of dealing with that.

To ignore something that I feel is genuinely wrong would be dishonest to myself. That doesn't mean I should hate someone because they do something I dislike, but coming back to the case of creating explicit rape-porn out of a children's cartoon like MLP, I feel I am obligated out of compassion for the person doing it to try and understand their reasoning, to explain how and why I feel that is a dysfunctional behavior, and ideally come to an understanding with them.

Does that put me among the ranks of totalitarian/fundamentalist asshats? I don't think it does, but it does seem to be skirting a fine line.

[Johuotar]

What about My Little Pony inspires a huge number of people to write, read, and discuss cartoon pony rape fanfiction? I understand Rule 34, and the fun of subverting existing works... but how do you get from subversion funtime to extensive discussion and creation of volumes of rape fanfiction built around a children's show? Am I the only one who sees the boundary being crossed there, into Not Okay territory?

Ugh, if that thing just had never happened, I wouldn't feel that I need to change my avatar just to avoid being accosiated with that thread. 

[Pnx]

In general if they're not actually molesting little ponies, or corrupting children or some such then I'm... well, sort of ok with it.

I don't approve, I'd prefer if it didn't happen, but I believe people have a right to be perverse. As long as they don't make it someone else's problem.

[fqllve]

Is putting a friendship on hiatus an acceptable thing to do? "It's not that I don't want to be friends with you forever, it's that I don't want to be friends with you for the next few months. "

It's an extraordinary dick move and it would make me an awful person, wouldn't it?

Does that put me among the ranks of totalitarian/fundamentalist asshats? I don't think it does, but it does seem to be skirting a fine line.

That doesn't even sound close to me. Actually, it's pretty much the most reasonable thing I can think to do in that situation. Is it okay for you to condemn them? Well, probably not. But it's perfectly fine to find such behavior unhealthy. Especially behavior that is so potentially offensive. Society is all about the enforcement of taboos, they're actually what keep things running so smoothly.

[kaijyuu]

I'm actually totally against laws that prohibit say, drawn CP. (let's stray away from that one though since it WILL get the thread edited (if not locked) if we continue discussing it here)

No victim, no crime. Period. In the end it's just forcing others opinions of what is gross and disgusting down other people's throats. It's not protecting anyone; it's just saying "I don't like what you like so you can't have it."

Weird fetishes are not a mental illness, either. There exist people out there who think the same as you do about furries (and not just yiffers); those people disgust me with their moral indignation.


This is absolutely no different than, say, violent media. Watching a violent film glorifying murder does not mean the person watching it is/will be a murderer, nor does it give any weight whatsoever to suspicions of such. Similarly, liking <insert fetish you find disgusting here> does not mean that person will participate in it in real life, nor is it reasonable to suspect them of such.


This would probably fit better in the progressive rage thread than here if you want a full, reasonable discussion about it.

[Gunner-Chan]

Especially behavior that is so potentially offensive. Society is all about the enforcement of taboos, they're actually what keep things running so smoothly.

This behavior is why gay marriage is so far off in several places. So I have no idea where you thought this was a valid point, or that things are even currently running smoothly.

[Virex]

Especially behavior that is so potentially offensive. Society is all about the enforcement of taboos, they're actually what keep things running so smoothly.

This behavior is why gay marriage is so far off in several places. So I have no idea where you thought this was a valid point, or that things are even currently running smoothly.

I think that we can all agree that a taboo that was thought up by a group of close-minded, power hungry and sociopathic patriarchs some 1600 years ago has no place in society, irrespective of the value one ascribes to taboos?

[Gunner-Chan]

Oh i'm sorry you seem to have stuck words in my mouth. Don't you have some terrible advice to give?

What I mean though is just because something is labled taboo doesn't mean it should be shunned. If there's a good reason then sure, like if it hurts other people or similarly causes damage. But if it's harmless to anyone not involved and it comes down to just being "Gross" or "Bad" then there's no longer a reason anymore. It might not be what the dictionary says for the word taboo but that's not what it means anymore is it?

[fqllve]

I don't see how a consensual relationship between two adults is offensive at all, or at least anywhere near the level of potential offensiveness of fiction about the rape of characters of a children's show. I think saying "Hey, this fiction isn't really something you should be broadcasting" and saying "You two aren't allowed to love eachother" are lightyears apart on the Map of Possible Statements.

[Gunner-Chan]

I'm just saying that society at large doesn't work smoothly like you said. Since it's not the reasonable people that define what's acceptable or not.

[kaijyuu]

But the justifications for both are exactly the same.

"it's gross"
"it's unnatural"
"it's offensive"
"it's a mental illness"


All bullshit.

Side note: Broadcasting? That's different. "It's gross" is a fine justification for wanting something to be hidden; it's not a fine justification to outright ban it, nor judge people for liking it.

[fqllve]

But the justifications for both are exactly the same.

They aren't really. It's not that it's gross, it's that it's putting a character in a situation of significant psychological torture and then perhaps using it for sexual gratification (although not necessarily). Theres a degree of sadism there and that's what makes it so potentially offensive. Rape in the real world is absolutely wrong, which is a viewpoint on pretty damn solid ground. The idea that homosexuality destroys families or is unnatural? Yeah, that's actually BS.

I'm just saying that society at large doesn't work smoothly like you said. Since it's not the reasonable people that define what's acceptable or not.

Well, that's true. But it's not the system of taboo that's at fault so much as it is that people are jerks. Taboos are mostly just a way for us to avoid pissing eachother off in public.