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[Ochita]

So, what some of you have said before in this thread, is that you're okay with gays/lesbians (Or are lesbians fully okay?)
as long as they keep up the appearance of being straight?

Something about that seems off..

[Truean]

Dropped her off this morning; she was braver than I was. Fuck all....

I wanna say this. He has every right to believe what he wants. But more importantly, he has a duty to his fellow human beings to accept that they are no less human for this; maybe he doesn't have to really believe in it, but it's an obligation that he not campaign to destroy the lives of people for loving other people. And even more importantly than that, by such a magnitude that every other consideration is practically meaningless, he has a duty to support his daughter and help her become a person she wants to be. What he's done is a horrible violation of these, and you (and everyone else who wants to do so) are right to call him an asshat for what he's done to a member of his family, and what he'd like to do to other people.

I, at least, do not condemn him for what he believes, but for what he has done. To bring such pain into another's life over this is just not acceptable, no matter what rights he might lay claim to.

From what I've seen, I like you.

I hope you'll forgive me for condemning him for what he believes, because his beliefs preclude acknowledging such a duty to his "fellow human beings." I've made the legal free speech arguments myself, but I never believed them. I make a lot of legal arguments I don't believe in. I actually don't know if I'm capable of believing this one. My mind gets stuck like a machine in a logical loop: "Respect others' beliefs even those beliefs that don't respect others. But by respecting those beliefs that don't respect others I am not respecting the people they don't respect, which in turn causes the system of respecting others' beliefs to fail...."

Perhaps I'm too close to the subject matter; perhaps I lived too much of the real world consequences to look at theory. Perhaps I'm just pissed off/sad because I've lost friendships with women whose boyfriends/husbands have a problem with gays (me). Perhaps I'm just overly vengeful and don't suffer fools those who repeatedly, willfully and purposefully harm others gladly. I realize fully that the KKK, neonazis, Westboro Baptist Church and really everyone who has objectionable/bigoted views, has to be allowed to believe them and speak. That said, I can't blame, black people, jews, or gays for condemning those beliefs especially since they suffer from them. My entire life is literally a very convincing lie and people like him are the reason I was terrified to go to school as a child. I don't know if it's something I lack or something extra I have, but I just am incapable of really seeing this line of argument.

Also, it's after the first of the month, which means I'm filing far too many evictions today, a grim business.... Moreover, the landlords haven't advanced me the court costs, probably won't reimburse us for them for a while, and this serves up situational irony. "Go get them for not paying on time, but I won't pay you on time either...."

I've used alcohol as a coping mechanism, but at least I'm cutting back on that with the goal of giving it up entirely.

[kaijyuu]

My view on the matter is "Respect their right to say it, not what they actually say."

I don't respect the dude's bullshit opinion. He's still a moron. I just wouldn't deny him the right to say it.

[Bohandas]

Yeah. Just because they have the right to say it doesn't mean that you don't have the right to call 'bullshit' on it. You have just as much right to call someone out on something that they said as they do to say it in the first place.

[Bohandas]

My entire life is literally a very convincing lie

Because you're a transsexual or because you're a lawyer?

And if the former, which are you referring to, the false denial of inner emotions, or the false denial of harsh physical reality?

[Bauglir]

My view on the matter is "Respect their right to say it, not what they actually say."

Basically, yes. I don't like his beliefs and will argue against them, but I agree that he's got a right to hold them in the first place. Of course, acting on that belief in any way at all (including, say, telling his daughter about it) creates conflicts with many more important responsibilities, which is what I was trying to say, really.

What he's done to his daughter is a lot of things, and only one of those is the acceptable "Exercise of his right to belief". But that's not all it was. All the other things that action was, such as devastating to another person, are not acceptable, I think. Sometimes conflicts between multiple goods create a difficult choice, but here I think it's absolutely clear that he made the wrong decision. But very rarely does any particular action have only a single moral classification that defines it.

I'm not sure if this post really makes sense, or is helpful, but suffice it to say, I think you're completely in the right, Truean, both for what you're doing and for what you feel.

[Vector]

Want to rest, take maybe 45 minutes to eat some sweet potatoes and stuff.  Probably can't.

Hate my life today =/

[Tibbz2]

My life sucks all the time atm

GCSEs are annoying.

[ChairmanPoo]

Greek economy keeps plummetting. This does not bode well for Europe

[SalmonGod]

Saw a quote the other day that made me happy.

"Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. 
 Homophobia is found in only one.
 Which one seems unnatural now?"

In addition to that, I've also noticed that there seems to be a direct correlation between the likelihood of homosexual behavior and the intelligence of the species (I haven't verified this though).

This might surprise you, then.  There are insects on this list...

[Truean]

My view on the matter is "Respect their right to say it, not what they actually say."

Basically, yes. I don't like his beliefs and will argue against them, but I agree that he's got a right to hold them in the first place. Of course, acting on that belief in any way at all (including, say, telling his daughter about it) creates conflicts with many more important responsibilities, which is what I was trying to say, really.

What he's done to his daughter is a lot of things, and only one of those is the acceptable "Exercise of his right to belief". But that's not all it was. All the other things that action was, such as devastating to another person, are not acceptable, I think. Sometimes conflicts between multiple goods create a difficult choice, but here I think it's absolutely clear that he made the wrong decision. But very rarely does any particular action have only a single moral classification that defines it.

I'm not sure if this post really makes sense, or is helpful, but suffice it to say, I think you're completely in the right, Truean, both for what you're doing and for what you feel.

The only space between you and I is that while you only condemn the belief and actions, I condemn even his having the belief itself as the source of the actions. It's a reasonable enough tact to for you to take.

My entire life is literally a very convincing lie

Because you're a transsexual or because you're a lawyer?

And if the former, which are you referring to, the false denial of inner emotions, or the false denial of harsh physical reality?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A little of both, but mostly my being transsexual. There are problems I see with being an attorney. I can't "lie or misrepresent," but I can for example plead "not guilty" when I know damn well he probably did it. The logic goes that a.) I am not actively lying but only omitting, b.) it's really the client saying it through me so the right against self incrimination applies, c.) it's putting the state to its burden of proof, and d.) attorney client privilege has no exceptions for past crimes.... It actually does make sense for those reasons, just like how motions in limine or to quash, keep the truth from ever coming to light in an entirely legal manner, because it was found unconstitutionally. The common sense says I'm lying/obscuring the truth, but if you look deeper there are legal, even good, reasons.

As for the being a closeted transsexual thing, that's where it really hurts. I live two entirely separate lives. One where I, rarely, get to be honest and the other where I live an elaborate lie appearing as a straight male, complete with female friends willing to pretend to be girlfriends. I often come off as cold, distant, aloof, and I'm sure occasionally a jackass, because I'm denying everything I am and not showing it to anyone. This of course leads to the question, if you don't show who you are, what do you show? Answer: a lie/cover story. I'm a decent actor but far from the best. It is really difficult to be on stage 24/7, and frankly that's a level of bullshit even I can't pull off. That's part of the reason why I seem cold, distant, aloof and a jackass; it's easier than fabricating an even more elaborate lie than the one I live.... The disguise is imperfect with cracks spackled over with the occasional wry humor to distract you from them....

This really takes a toll on me I can't ever fully explain. For example, I'm not even entirely sure how to act around those few people who do really know how and what I am. It's hard to act genuine or engage with them, because I've spent decades not being genuine and disengaging with everyone else. I suppose I'm out of practice if I ever knew how in the first place. I can't help feeling somewhat naked and defenseless around those who do know, no matter how accepting they are, because someone tried to blackmail me with it before and people in general are god damn cruel. I know I'd lose my family/many friends/job/chance of being hired if I was honest, despite nothing having changed really. That is an incredibly, unbelievably oversimplified version. What has really kept me alive is my ability to lie and to bury myself in work so I don't have to face the truth. I withdrawal from people because then I don't have to lie around them.... 

People like the charming lie, better than the honest, I submit potentially equally charming, truth.... I like how they live in a world where they ignore truth and honestly ask why there is no justice in the world.... I think we all know why. This saddens me greatly.

[MaximumZero]

I would find it rather insulting when people would deny themselves just because I might feel uncomfortable, as if they are implicitly stating that I'm their superior and they need my fiat to do anything.

You also have to remember something about that. I find myself far inferior to all of humanity, even people I think are outright stupid or have harmful beliefs.

[SalmonGod]

The discussion of whether beliefs should be criminalized is rather pointless, until someone can come up with a practical way to actually carry out that criminalization.  The law can say it's illegal to hold prejudice against homosexuals, but all that will do is force people to hide their beliefs.  Perhaps that would have been enough to prevent that girl's father from kicking her out of her home, but then he probably would have been a horribly abusive father until she could escape, while making up lies about his motivations for hating his daughter.

[Bohandas]

People like the charming lie, better than the honest, I submit potentially equally charming, truth.... I like how they live in a world where they ignore truth and honestly ask why there is no justice in the world.... I think we all know why. This saddens me greatly.

I think that it may be more that because the inner (emotional) truth conflicts with the outer (physiological) truth, people see the inner truth as Quixotic when it is revealed.

[Truean]

The discussion of whether beliefs should be criminalized is rather pointless, until someone can come up with a practical way to actually carry out that criminalization.  The law can say it's illegal to hold prejudice against homosexuals, but all that will do is force people to hide their beliefs.  Perhaps that would have been enough to prevent that girl's father from kicking her out of her home, but then he probably would have been a horribly abusive father until she could escape, while making up lies about his motivations for hating his daughter.

True, unfortunately. I don't think holding a belief can be criminalized. I do think it can be wrong.