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Author Topic: Things that made you sad today thread.  (Read 9495092 times)

Vector

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29655 on: May 09, 2011, 12:01:32 am »

You have an awful lot of valid criticisms of the movie, and Disney-styling in general Vector, but I feel it's objectionable to compare it to the book. It was meant to be it's own thing, so enjoy it for being exactly that.

I am never, ever going to enjoy that movie.  It has not that much to do with the novel, really... I hated it the first time I saw it, without even any other movies to compare it to.  There is an extra level of hatred due to familiarity with another narrative, but a lot of that really has to do with seeing the points where a particular action or emotion followed with an event in the book.  See, the result is that I end up having a heightened sense of confusion, because rather than simply saying "... What?"  I end up saying "What?" followed up by "why did that happen?"

In the first instance, I'm just confused by the entire story and totally clueless.  In the second, I have some projection as to what might have happened and end up another flavor of confused.

Hence a lot of the confusion over Frollo and Quasimodo's behavior (Esmeralda is a cardboard cutout with "spunk" scrawled on in purple crayon, and Phoebus is so different to the original that I really can't compare the two).  His actions make no sense.  A few slivers of them make me go "Ah, I feel like I know where I am!" and then I look at everything else and say "wait, fuck, no."

There's so much mood whiplash, basically, and so much nonsensical character development, that I get almost hopeful when something like Hellfire shows up to be a sort of cross between the original and the new.  I did like that song.  I did like Esmeralda's "God Help the Outcasts," though that was definitely a Disney thing not at all in the original novel and completely outside of the domain of her character.

And, on the other hand, the other thing is that I am never going to get over Quasimodo's puppyification.  There's a number of things I can forgive as narrative liberty.  Aging up Esmeralda, okay.  Tossing Gringoire, okay.  Phoebus is the main love interest rather than a sleazeball, okay.  Making Frollo an unprincipled racist, rather than a tortured priest... I'm deeply unhappy about that, but that's mostly because he's my favorite character.  I can deal with him being a judge, though it feels really weird.

The part where Frollo's name was changed from "Claude Frollo" to simply "Frollo" pisses me off a bit because "Claude" is from "Claudius," meaning "cripple," and that was always very interesting to me.  But that's a minor nitpick.

But we have this collective idea about this character, Quasimodo, and who that is.  The original novel was changed and censored in its initial publication here to raise him to the position of the hero, rather than a mere actor upon the stage--I'm not even just talking about the title shift, either.  We have a certain idea in collective culture about who this person is, and what his existence is supposed to mean.  "A good heart beneath a hideous exterior."  The shift of Quasimodo's degree of hideousness frankly bothers me, much as it bothered me when the Andrew Lloyd Weber version of PotO (both movie and play, but especially the movie) made only half of the Phantom's face ugly--compared to the full-bodied hideousness of the novel.

The message of acceptance is greatly, greatly weakened.  The damage done to Quasimodo's temperament is really superficial.

It's the good old myth that "within every ugly exterior, there's a totally normal person waiting to get out, not really shaped at all by their external appearance."

And, I guess, that's what really bothered me.


I have to admit the power dynamics of abuse also really got to me, which made the movie quite a bit less enjoyable in certain aspects.  The "yes, master" things... hurgh.

I definitely laughed at the alphabet, though.  For me, that was probably my favorite part of the film.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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Criptfeind

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29656 on: May 09, 2011, 12:38:01 am »

Vector. It is a movie for six year olds. Why would you expect it to be deep?
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Vector

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29657 on: May 09, 2011, 12:47:40 am »

Vector. It is a movie for six year olds. Why would you expect it to be deep?

Because children aren't stupid, and they can understand more than Disney apparently gave them credit for.

If they can handle The Wizard of Oz and Winnie the Pooh (talking about the novels, not the movies), then surely they can handle something more than this.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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Criptfeind

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29658 on: May 09, 2011, 12:50:15 am »

You kidding? Some some children are smart.

Definitely most are dumb as bricks.

E: And a light moral tale wrapped around entertainment is enough for them.
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Vector

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29659 on: May 09, 2011, 12:54:08 am »

E: And a light moral tale wrapped around entertainment is enough for them.

Entertainment... ?

I think I kind of lack an understanding of what most children find entertaining.  Hmm.

I suspect that I've been a bit too serious all my life to understand their perspective.  Around that age, my big thing was studying medicine and trying to create a comprehensive theory of soap bubbles >_>
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

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Criptfeind

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29660 on: May 09, 2011, 12:56:43 am »

And I was trying to decide between ninja and robot for Halloween.

I chose robot, and it was the best costume I have ever had, the inability to sit down notwithstanding.

Most kids were most likely smarter then me, but really, from what I have seen... Not by much.
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Vector

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29661 on: May 09, 2011, 12:59:27 am »

. . .

I don't think of myself as especially smart.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

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Criptfeind

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29662 on: May 09, 2011, 01:04:14 am »

Okay, honest truth here:

I do not ether.

But:
1: Where I come from, that is what you say as a basic politeness. Turns out not everyone has the same culture as me, but damn if I will not keep going until all of you say Eh (or Ehay... Whatever.) at the end of your sentences.

2: That was more a remark on my self then on you. Once again, self decapitating comments is just a culture thing for me. Yall know what I am saying Eh?
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Darvi

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29663 on: May 09, 2011, 01:05:56 am »

I was like that back then too, but never bothered with the deeper meanings of stories.

In fact, I still hate it. Friggin' Jesus in Purgatory.
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Vector

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29664 on: May 09, 2011, 01:09:18 am »

No, I mean... I'm being honest, too.

I guess maybe that's weird, but I don't think that being serious => being smart, really.  Maybe that's just me.  But ... whatever.  It doesn't matter.  I'm just saying, that's why I tend to expect something else from children.


I was like that back then too, but never bothered with the deeper meanings of stories.

In fact, I still hate it. Friggin' Jesus in Purgatory.

Bah, I have little school assignments back from kindergarten where I wrote that I liked some story or another because (essentially) the stories of the father and the son were foils for each other.

I guess my history is a little bit bizarre.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

The Merchant Of Menace

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29665 on: May 09, 2011, 01:23:27 am »

Ugh.. so tired.. feel sick, what the fuck life..
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scriver

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29666 on: May 09, 2011, 03:46:22 am »

As I see it, kids are just as smart as their grown-up counterparts. They have less knowledge and experience, but that does not make them dumb, just naive. If anything, children are better at learning and sucking up messages, since that's basically all they do.

These kids be made for watching, yo.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29667 on: May 09, 2011, 03:51:39 am »

Even if that is true, and it is way to late for me to fight it, you still can not thrust a wealth of new thinking on anyone at once. It needs to be given in bits in pieces or it will be too strange.

Basically, what I am saying is that you need to know certain things before you learn more things, you need that build up.

Thus for children (the people who do not have that build up) you need simple concepts.
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scriver

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29668 on: May 09, 2011, 04:51:03 am »

I think you're just underestimating their ability :P

But I won't argue with you - I don't know enough about to make a real case either way.
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Grimshot

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #29669 on: May 09, 2011, 06:53:43 am »

I'm sad today because my neck was sun burned fairly bad, kinda feels leathery and swollen. Arms are burned to but not nearly as bad. Damn my pale skin... I feel a bit lethargic today also.

Also, on the subject of children. From what I've experienced, intelligence has more to do with the individual person than with age. I try not to treat them as lesser than me just because they are younger, I remember that really pissed me off when I was younger myself lol.

Hmm, can't remember what I watched when I was young. I think I may have spent a good deal of my time outside instead. I liked to look for fossils, rocks with crystal formations, and finding various fungi/moss/lichen to examine.
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