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[Tack]

Haha, inb4 you have to go through and personally exonerate all of the non-jerks individually.


Personally, If 'everyone is filth' is the mindset required for everyone else to let their filters down, I'm all for it.
... Well... I'd like to say that it helps facilitate some frank discussion, but as recently seen it mostly just breeds trouble.
I guess if you can't be nice, be civil, and if you can't be civil, be chill.
Then the world is all hugs. Or awkward, frosty eye contact. Good enough.

[TD1]

Hrm.

Well, I think whether or not someone is an eejit really rests upon the person doing the judging. I mean, I'm fairly certain I'm not an eejit, but that's me doing the judging. I'm 100% certain that some, or most, of you think I am one, and that's the individual's opinion.

Really, it comes down to treating yourself and others well, and not caring what others think.

[Tiruin]

Well, she posted a private email from vector, for a while at least. That'd certainly get me pissed off. I'd still have to forgive her eventually, I guess...

Err, I had their permission to speak about it plainly and openly. As in, literally everything within that thing I edited out. (But I got the thought seconds after I posted then logged out after doing other posts...just took quite a while to get back on a connection to modify that post in particular. Apologies for anything anyone else felt that was unintended).

Yeah, I dunno what's in the water lately, but I've noticed a distinct sharper edge in conversations over the last six months or so. I don't like that. I've probably contributed to it in some cases.

Our habits.

A sad I'd wanted to share was a teaching said onto me long ago when we talked about the many social problems: "It's a particularly sad thing when something uncommonly negative becomes common, and then we think as if its common, and behave accordingly."
While the situation was discussing the attitude behind poverty and other social problems, it also encompasses people being jerks. That's attitude. Not being people. It's what people can do. It's not what we should do. It's like treating others how we'd ideally want to be treated ourselves. Not like jerks.

It may be happening here, it may not be--but when I observed the latest 'explosions', these usually went with how criticism was given and the...lacking openness of words being used when people posted about discussing things. So it's more edgy, yet impactful.

The bystander effect also plays a role here :O When edgy stuffs happens, people could diffuse the situation and chill. Taking the fall for one's own perceived fault isn't anything bad.

[Graknorke]

No, being a jerk is definitely a people thing. People's interests will conflict with each other. It's inevitable.

[Tiruin]

No, being a jerk is definitely a people thing. People's interests will conflict with each other. It's inevitable.

This is a bit too broad. Though by experience has merit
When I say jerk, I mean the act of being unwelcomingly negative or offensive and aggressive towards any sort of matter; discussions can occur in a very diplomatic and warm way without trodding on others' toes, because communication is a very vast process. You can disagree on matters and you may have conflicting ideas. You can make a request--and even if that request is spitefully denied, that doesn't mean the only answer to deal with that, or conflicting ideas, or anything in general is only being a jerk.

Look around you and notice how the best of people deal with such matters. Toady can diffuse many of these things merely by a request, as a prime example.

But I'm cutting it here (unless specifics want to pepper the details on "being a jerk is inherent". It is a people thing in that people do it, but it isn't something that makes us. )

[Graknorke]

This is a bit too broad
When I say jerk, I mean the act of being unwelcomingly negative or offensive and aggressive towards any sort of matter; discussions can occur in a very diplomatic and warm way without trodding on others' toes, because communication is a very vast process. You can disagree on matters and you may have conflicting ideas. That doesn't mean the only answer to deal with that is being a jerk.

All (or at least the vast majority of) people though will find a person who holds a particular opinion to be a jerk just by virtue of holding it. Like, if someone told me that some part of my genetic heritage is inferior and therefore I should be systematically killed, I would be very much ready to think that they're a bad person, regardless of how diplomatically and warmly they put it.

[Tiruin]

This is a bit too broad
When I say jerk, I mean the act of being unwelcomingly negative or offensive and aggressive towards any sort of matter; discussions can occur in a very diplomatic and warm way without trodding on others' toes, because communication is a very vast process. You can disagree on matters and you may have conflicting ideas. That doesn't mean the only answer to deal with that is being a jerk.

All (or at least the vast majority of) people though will find a person who holds a particular opinion to be a jerk just by virtue of holding it. Like, if someone told me that some part of my genetic heritage is inferior and therefore I should be systematically killed, I would be very much ready to think that they're a bad person, regardless of how diplomatically and warmly they put it.

Isn't that because there's something misleading with the idea in the first place? o_o

[RedKing]

Grak: Easy to make that argument with an extreme example like that. How about "is someone told me that my gender is inferior and therefore I should be compensated less". That's a jerky idea, but I've seen it argued ON THIS VERY FORUM.

[Helgoland]

I reckon that's because 'inferior' is a very context-sensitive word. The thing I'm sitting on is inferior to the thing in my cabinet as a hammer, but superior to it as a chair. Neither is inferior to the other in a holistic sense.

[Bauglir]

There are few things that upset me more than seeing people decide that, because the world is shit, it's fine for them to be shit, too. I'd have expected a less conformist response than "Well, don't want to stand out!" Don't pretend reality justifies any kind of behavior - it doesn't justify altruism any more than it justifies murder. The world is a formless mass. It doesn't mean anything - except what we think it means. If you see the world as inherently shitty, it's because your expectations are too high. Accept responsibility for yourself, and quit pretending that wanting the world to be something it isn't makes you a realist. If you don't like the world, maybe work to make it a better place - I know, it's hard, and it doesn't let you feel that tough-guy philosophical rush, and probably you won't make any difference, but it's a damn sight more honest than sitting back and lamenting the human sewer you did nothing to clean up.

And one of those few things that upsets me more is when people pretend that asking for consideration is somehow censorship. Now, maybe I'm wrong, but have you ever had to deal with a censor? Because one of the key points with censorship is that they don't ask. They just blot out your words, or set up programs that compel you to do it for them. And on top of that, Bay12 is not some government entity. You have a choice about being here. And sometimes we do need censorship, as happens any time Toady deletes posts. What, you think just because clearing out shock image spam is a good thing it isn't censorship? Maybe he deletes this post, even!

As is the case in any functional community, a basic respect for other members is mandatory. You don't need to suborn yourself to their wellbeing; I'm not going to never talk about sexy things because it upsets wierd. But you do need to consider it; now that I know, I'm not going to ever specifically address wierd with talk of sexy things, and if asked I'll be happy to take conversations on the matter to PM or see what else I can do to make things a bit easier for him, because that's how people act when they're not being entitled little shits. I'll certainly not make it a point to make fun of asexual people, or refuse to apologize for unintentionally parroting something insulting toward them because heaven forbid I apologize for making a mistake.

So, yeah, I'm out. I'll see you guys next month, when hopefully I've calmed down, because right now being part of this community is not something I'm proud of.

[Graknorke]

Grak: Easy to make that argument with an extreme example like that. How about "is someone told me that my gender is inferior and therefore I should be compensated less". That's a jerky idea, but I've seen it argued ON THIS VERY FORUM.

Okay, that one then.

@Bauglir: It's hypocritical of you to accuse everyone else of seeing the world as inherently shitty and then doing the exact same thing two paragraphs later.

[Rolan7]

So, the "entitled little shits" are the people who speak normally, without choosing to censor their speech according to the whims of some half-dozen people.  When these whims usually aren't written down anywhere, much less supported in any way.  The only way to know you've stepped on one of these rhetorical land mines is when 3-4 people eagerly jump in to call you an asshole and demand that you change your post.  For "decency". 

"What, you want to know why!?  You entitled little [expletive]!"
"What, being called names hasn't convinced you!?  You entitled little [expletive]!"
"How dare you defy us!?  You troll!"

I would like to suggest that, perhaps, it is the people making the demands who are entitled.  And while I get the urge to join the circlejerk (I've certainly done it before), it's shitty.

It makes me all the more ashamed because I usually *agree* with the popular opinions.  I'm liberal on most issues, I believe in transsexuality and I'm atheist.  But I cringe every time I see a contrary viewpoint spoken, because it's going to get shouted down by weight of words and group pressure.  Which obviously leads to unproductive arguments.

[Tiruin]

Err, Grak. I think constructive criticism would do a lot better than broad criticism. It's missing the key details.

...Also the discussion on censorship could do a bit more with being specific on ideas instead of getting the assumed idea then presenting it back with what may be missing.

Social pressure isn't how these things are taken care of, guys ._.

[Graknorke]

Err, Grak. I think constructive criticism would do a lot better than broad criticism. It's missing the key details.

Accusing everyone of seeing the world as shitty:

if you see the world as inherently shitty, it's because your expectations are too high. Accept responsibility for yourself, and quit pretending that wanting the world to be something it isn't makes you a realist.

Claiming that people are shitty:

that's how people act when they're not being entitled little shits. [...] because heaven forbid I apologize for making a mistake.

Better?

[Radio Controlled]

At the expense of having another emushion thread appear in my list, maybe we could try to move discussions such as that one over to a quicktopic dedicated to it.

Talking about difference between our life-selves and internet-selves: Harmless/Sad
Talking about Vector leaving: Harmless/Sad.
Where's the problem?

I meant inflammatory discussions that people feel strongly about and which sometimes lead to needing intervention of the amphibian kind.

Yeah the WTF thread had some bystander effect going on. Everyone thought it should be in a different thread, nobody wanted to make one.
Which is fair. It's just asking for a black mark on your name. Kudos to the guy who did. I'm ashamed to say I wussed out on it.

I didn't even mean a thread here on bay12.
http://www.quicktopic.com

A quicktopic can be quickly (duh) created, doesn't need an account to post in one, and can be deleted in full as well if needed. Just a handy way of containing 'hazardous materials', so to speak.