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[Leafsnail]

Ehehehehe, there are some questionable things considering women's role in Umineko which are probably left unsaid.

Spoiler: probably (click to show/hide)

To be fair, he most definitely isn't portrayed as being in the right in that scene.

[Vector]

Eh.  I don't think we can blame any one group, or our institution of education.  Teachers work really hard, and there's only so much they can do.  All we can really do is educate ourselves as individuals, try to live kind and exemplary lives, and change the world as we encounter it.  If we can keep passing this message and good will on, we may be able to change the background society in a way that overt attempts have been unable to touch.

And Duke--if you ever want to talk about what's annoying you, go for it.  We've managed to get through most of feminism, homophobia, and religion vs. science without massive issues.  Sure, we're still putting out the occasional fire, but I think we've sort of made it through in a lot of ways.  So, if you feel ready some day, give it a try.

[fqllve]

Alright, sexism: Why the hell are we even debating this? Specifically the comment about games not pandering to male gamers. This is so obviously false that any discussion about it should be a mocking joke.

This, pretty much.

"Oh my god. Four out of six of the women in my party aren't only interested in men! That's sexism! *Ragepost*"

[scriver]

There's a difference between, say, harlequins/rosewater novels and your usual chick flick.  Both are romantic stories usually aimed at women, but the former tends to be more sexual.

Aah, I thought romance novels pretty much equalled harlequins. But it's more a broad (pun not intended) super-genre, I guess?

Eh.  I don't think we can blame any one group, or our institution of education.  Teachers work really hard, and there's only so much they can do.  All we can really do is educate ourselves as individuals, try to live kind and exemplary lives, and change the world as we encounter it.  If we can keep passing this message and good will on, we may be able to change the background society in a way that overt attempts have been unable to touch.

Complications occur when even people who are "aware" keep perpetuating the old patterns without even thinking about it, though. Like people who view themselves as feminists and acknowledge the faults of today's society, but then automatically decide what their children should and should not like depending on their genders. In other words, how do you overcome tradition, when even the people speaking out against it is in fact continuing it themselves?

[Vector]

Yeah, romance is quite a bit broader than just harlequins.


Those people are not aware enough, then.

[Duke 2.0]

Eh.  I don't think we can blame any one group, or our institution of education.  Teachers work really hard, and there's only so much they can do.  All we can really do is educate ourselves as individuals, try to live kind and exemplary lives, and change the world as we encounter it.  If we can keep passing this message and good will on, we may be able to change the background society in a way that overt attempts have been unable to touch.

 Of course. And most of my arguments were made in defense of the game companies, as despite them being the makers of some of this crap I can kinda see how it's a logical step for them. And an ever present idea that any creative thing should always push the boundaries and strive for originality, as that is something I've been grinding with a lot recently. But this is an observation why why this discussion has been so heated and not the issue at hand.

 And my thing wouldn't be accepted for the same reason it's not accepted that I can find something morally bad yet be totally fine with it and wish the best for the people involved with it without any of the harmful undertones similar viewpoints in the past have shared. It isn't a hateful or discriminatory thing, but it would be highly opposed and calls to get me out of my faith for supporting such a thing would be had.

[SalmonGod]

Those people are not aware enough, then.

Self-aware, specifically... the most important kind.

[fqllve]

I'll grind with you at that, Duke. The idea that any creative project should always be anything is ludicrous. They don't always even have to be enjoyable. And it's pretty annoying when a work pushes boundaries just for the hell of it. That isn't really any less shallow than having explosions because they're loud and bright.

[SalmonGod]

I'll grind with you at that, Duke. The idea that any creative project should always be anything is ludicrous. They don't always even have to be enjoyable. And it's pretty annoying when a work pushes boundaries just for the hell of it. That isn't really any less shallow than having explosions because they're loud and bright.

I'll second all of this.  I have high opinions of some creative works I really didnt enjoy.  My feelings after watching A Clockwork Orange could be summed up as "That was a really good movie... that I never want to see again.  I think I'll go burn it now."

[scriver]

Those people are not aware enough, then.

Well, yeah, that kind of was my point.
But also that these people are the bulk of the movement for gender equality, and they are actually working against it. Point being, I no longer feel just "passing on the message" will be enough. Yet I don't know what else you can do, you know, except ridiculously nonsensical dystopian "solutions", and it fills me with such apathic resignation for the future.. I'm really at a lack of words now.

..And yes, I realise I once again failed completely at making this point go home in my previous post.

[Vector]

Yeah, sorry for saying such obvious things right now.  I'm really, really tired today and all I can conjure up is a sort of insensible anger.

Can't be smart all the time =/

[SalmonGod]

You can point out lack of self-awareness in others if you're tactful enough about it.  Leading by example is about the most constructive thing a person can possibly do, though.  Sometimes people want to change things about themselves and honesly don't know how, but seeing someone else do it can be helpful.

[Vector]

Yup, I'm the only person I've seen who's given up a seat on the bus unprompted for someone else.  Immediately after I did that, another girl did too, kind of tentatively.

That was nice to see.

[Lysabild]

Too much exaggereted political correctness in here tbh, Baldurs Gate was a great game, crying about romance feels honestly like a shallow way to judge it  (And I'm a fag remember?)

And the day rape, violence and other morbid and wrong things can no longer be freely explored in a game, I'm going to mourn the day freedom of expression died.

Whining about corpses in a dungeon crawling game about a fight against hell itself meh, next is what? Sigh..

[Bauglir]

I get pissed off at those romantic novels.

Here's why.  You guys know about the man's heroic journey in literature, right?  Well, the woman's heroic journey, as analyzed through myths around the world, goes like this:

Woman comes of age, symbolized somehow.  Either way, she's fertile now.
Problem in the world around her, usually natural--crop issues, whatever.
Pursuing man.
Now, she has a choice.
a. Submit, have sex, and stay alive
b. Refuse the man's sexual advances and she becomes "inert."  She may die, turn into a tree, the crops may fail, whatever.

That's it.  That's the story of a woman, as usually told.  Those trashy romance novels are no different.  And so, yes, I'm tired of it, because it seems like it's absolutely everywhere.

I'm not saying I object to every instance of a woman being out of power.  I'm saying that I object to this particular narrative that seems to keep on proliferating itself.

I may be a bit late for commenting on this, but I've gotten pretty used to the idea that there are people who suck out there. I do think they should try not to suck, but I can at least accept that not every author is going to be able to write something worth reading and that therefore crappy writing is going to exist. Hell, I haven't read most books that are worth reading. So it doesn't bother me when trash gets put out. After all, 90% of everything is crud.

What bothers me is when the crud becomes popular and earns widespread acclaim. Because when that happens, it's not just inevitable nastiness. It actually says something about our culture, in this case that we haven't actually advanced as far as we like to pat ourselves on the back for having done. That, on some level, we still actually think that this is how things are supposed to be.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I agree that the aforementioned things suck, but it's only a subset that bothers me.

Spoiler: Probably gonna derail, and it's horribly cliche to bring it up, but I feel I have to (click to show/hide)

This is actually my problem with Twilight. It's an exemplar of this attitude, and that bothers me a lot more than shitty writing or screwing with vampire myths. I now return you to your regularly scheduled sadness.

NINJAEDIT: Goddamn it guys, you're posting faster than I can read new replies.