Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[wierd]

I know you are not this obstinate arx, but really.


If you fail to meet the living conditions with your home, they will condemn and demolish it, then give you the bill for that demolition.  First though, they will fine you obscene amounts to compel you to comply.  (As pointed out, simply turning off the hot water heater is a violation. They explicitly state "At all times.") 

I get that you are not used to that level of litigious bullshit, but that is one thing the US is pretty well known for.  They can, and will, go after you if they catch wind that you are not in compliance.  To live off grid, you have to have certified equipment, and that means having certified service performed on it. Unless you happen to hold multiple certifications and can then service your own equipment, and can then pay for a state examiner to verify your work, you are still going to have to deal with the social construct, and get dinged financially. 

it is absurdly difficult to go off-grid in the US.

[Arx]

??? Once again, I am not telling you to sever your electricity connection. I am not telling you to withdraw from society. The opposite, in fact. I don't know where you're getting that from. You don't need to use it. Don't switch on the lights. Don't use appliances more than absolutely necessary to live. Resist the urge to press the buttons.

You can, right here right now, make a major shift towards abandoning modern excess. Turn off your lights. Turn off your PC and appliances. Stop playing with all that tech and code you love so much. Start doing things by hand. Stop using your hot taps. Stop using a phone except when you have to for work.

One last time, for good measure: this can all be done in compliance with local laws. Your house will continue to be connected to a state-sanctioned water and electricity supply and sewer. You will still have hot water on tap. You will still have heating equipment. Your house will continue to pass inspections. You will just no longer be using nearly as much electricity, and hopefully be using less water.

If you're not willing to do that, then what you want isn't to "abandon modern excess". It's to continue living in the same fashion, just with the electricity under your direct control. And if you want that because it's more sustainable, you should instead of wanting to become a hermit in the woods want the US to stop wastefully propping up fossil fuels and switch to renewables or nuclear.

[wierd]

You are still using energy to heat the hot water, even if you do not use it.  In fact, if you DONT use it, you are being overtly wasteful. (Consuming energy for no practical purpose, other than legal requirements.)

The error you are making is in thinking I do not already cut utilities back to bare minimums.  I keep the lights off, and keep water use to a minimum already.  (My combined sewer, water, and trash bill is under 60$ a month.)

I would be willing to go "Full dark-age, no power used at all", which is what I was asserting.  I am not allowed to do that.  That is what I was asserting.  You are moving the goal post by asserting what you are.

[Arx]

Yes, I moved the goalposts. I very specifically and intentionally moved the goalposts because you complained that going full Dark Age was illegal, so I pointed out that there is an alternative goal available within the bounds of the law.

You are not cutting back utilities to a bare minimum, because almost all of your hobbies revolve around the use of electricity. You are fairly obviously not trying to go full Dark Age, because you're posting on this forum.

Not using the heated water isn't wasteful - it uses less energy to maintain the temperature than to keep heating new water. Recall that the objective here isn't your personal comfort, it's to get as close to "full dark-age, no power used at all" as possible within the bounds set by the law.

I stand by what I said: you don't want to actually do the drudgery required of living without electricity. You just think it sounds romantic. If you really wanted to live without electricity, you would dedicate this energy to figuring out how to do it or make progress towards it. Instead you're arguing with me on the internet about why it's fine that you're not actually trying to abandon modern excess.

It still comes down to that it looks very much like you want to die nobly, not live humbly.

Which actually raises another question! If you want so desperately to live a Dark Age life, why don't you leave the US? There are plenty of countries that won't stop you living like that.

[wierd]

You would be surprised.  I would much rather deal with harsh reality than deal with artificial bureaucracy.
(It's also why I went ahead with working in healthcare vs technology.  Literal shit is better to deal with than figurative shit; Figurative shit never gets suitably cleaned.  Reality is harsh, but fair. Not so with artificial systems. They are designed not to be.)

I know how to, and am honestly willing.  again, I am not allowed to.  Do not move the goal post.  I already meet your asserted requirement, and did so before you said anything.  I understand and know that this is not enough.

[Arx]

I already meet your asserted requirement, and did so before you said anything.

Well, you're using a computer, and most of your hobbies seem to revolve around technology, so no you don't.

And once again, if you're not allowed to, why not move somewhere where you are allowed to?

[wierd]

You are wrong, and would be surprised.  I have plenty of hobbies that require no electricity at all, and anymore, I find computers more trouble than they are fun.

Please don't consider your own perceptions of me to be what is actually true.  That's a cogitative bias.


As for the "Why don't you move?" rhetoric---


Why don;t the people in Chicago move to escape their crippling poverty? Oh-- Right-- THEY CANT.  (Seriously, have you ever even looked into how many loops and financial pitfalls there are to leave the US, and move to another country? )

[Arx]

That's a really fast switch, given how much you seem to enjoy reading about and talking about fixing/hacking/oddly connecting old computers. And old printers. And 3D printers. And how much you seem to enjoy reading scientific news and papers. And posting on this forum. I obviously don't know you in person, but they're clearly there. Oh, and until you stop posting on this forum you don't have a leg to stand on because it's self-evidently a hobby that uses electricity ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sure, it's not easy to move out of the US, but you're clearly financially fairly stable. Once again, it's not necessarily about whether you've done it; it's about if you truly wanted to do it, you would be trying to find ways of doing it. All the signs indicate that you'd much rather work on persuading me that you can't do it than try to do it.

Again, there's nothing wrong with not actually doing it. I just find it highly unlikely that you're actually as willing to totally kick modern convenience as you say.

[wierd]

And yet you know nothing about my knitting and crochet hobbies?  Or WHY I got the large printer in the first place? (To make patterns for clothing?)

Yup. Cogitative bias.

[Arx]

I know why you got the large format printer, yes. If you were trying to live a no-tech life, you would sacrifice the printer and find another way.

And I note you still haven't commented on the fact that the act of posting on this forum is a hobby using electricity.

You're moving the goalposts by saying you have hobbies that don't use electricity, but that's not actually what I'm getting at. My "asserted requirement" is "no more modern utilities than necessary to survive". You claim you already meet this. You are also posting on the forum and have posted in the past about electricity-using hobbies.

Either you are wrong or I'm hallucinating this entire exchange. There's only one way to slice it, I'm afraid. It's not even a false dichotomy, because I was speaking in absolutes and so were you.

And again, because I worry if I don't keep repeating this you'll move the goalposts to me making some kind of moral judgement, I don't have a problem with you using electricity. I just question whether you'd actually live a no-tech life if you could.

[wierd]

Quite right!  I would probably simply knit everything, since there are fast ways to do that, and fashion is unimportant under such conditions. (Being fashionable is an artificially imposed requirement, that I would be quite happy to not have to deal with. Since I DO have to maintain dress code, I cannot go that route; If that requirement were not there, I would do so. Happily.)

The rhetorical argument you are now making is "You haven't done that thing! (which you assert, and have demonstrated is illegal for you to do!), so therefore you are being disingenuous!"  Which-- is bullshit, because I am not allowed to do that thing, which I have pointed out.

Since I am NOT ALLOWED to do that thing, I do the next best thing.  The printer I got was bargain basement price, and permits me to conserve on material expenditures; IE, to do more things myself.



You are trying to have your cake and eat it too. That's a nonsense argument.

[Arx]

Since I am NOT ALLOWED to do that thing, I do the next best thing.

You are still making posts on this forum, which has no practical purpose but consumes electricity.

The fact that this conversation even exists continues to torpedo your claim that you use no more electricity than necessary to survive.

[wierd]

In case you hadn't noticed, internet access is considered a necessity, not a luxury, in the US.  You cannot legitimately get by without it.  Much like the hot water issue, getting and maintaining it without using it, is what is excessive.

Next rhetorical device please?

[Arx]

Detail to me which part of the electricity you're spending to have this discussion is legally mandated? Note how specific I have been throughout this entire exchange. I have not once criticised your possession of an internet connection. I have noted that your participation on this forum is obviously voluntary, obviously consumes electricity and it follows that it contradicts your claim to already use as little electricity as you are legally allowed to.

I have places to be now, but I think it's clear this discussion is going nowhere, given that every single time I point out something you do that uses electricity that you could avoid you rationalise it in one way or another. I suggest you give some actual thought to whether you're living as close to the earth as you like to boast - again, not because it's a bad thing if you don't, but because it's an obvious contradiction that you're using your leisure time to brag online about how you don't use your leisure time for technology.

[wierd]

Currently, I am at work.

My workplace is governed by strict laws concerning record keeping and oversight.  Electrical power delivery is strictly controlled for longterm care facilities, and so are the requirements for record keeping, which in recent decades, has been mandated to be in searchable digital form. As a result, services like PointClickCare (the record keeping service this facility uses) fill necessary roles.  The use of that service requires internet access.

Since you did not stop to contemplate this before you felt the need to criticize, it only demonstrates your bias.  You are not helping yourself.