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Author Topic: Space colonization[IRL]  (Read 23580 times)

x2yzh9

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #105 on: November 04, 2009, 12:02:36 am »

Well, I think we've gone through some stuff and I've actually thought up a plan.
1.Food needs-Use hydroponic Domes. Derp.
2.Water needs-Simply bring alot of water on the colony ship and COMPLETELY reuse it in a treatment plant.
3.Air-Grow plants on the walls, in the centers, in the bedrooms, etc. etc., hydroponic of course, to produce O2.
4.Pressure-Pressurized Steel Tunnels.
5.Gravity-Setting aside a mandatory working out period for all colonists.
6.Communications-Setup a government-funded Relay satellite.
7.Luxury-Buy Luxury goods from Earth via the communication satellite and government funding.
8.Energy-Solar PANELS! As well as a nuclear power plant, if ever needed.

The Architect

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #106 on: November 04, 2009, 07:09:56 pm »

Don't know what we'd do for fun, though. I imagine that we'd have to spend a good deal of time working out in order to account for the low gravity. After that, I guess we could just play DF on NASA supercomputers ;D

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zchris13

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #107 on: November 04, 2009, 07:42:45 pm »

What NASA supercomputers? I thought they leased out the computing.
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Twiggie

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #108 on: November 06, 2009, 07:03:03 pm »

2.Water needs-Simply bring alot of water on the colony ship and COMPLETELY reuse it in a treatment plant.
8.Energy-Solar PANELS! As well as a nuclear power plant, if ever needed.

because we can completely reuse water. and because kids dont need any. you need a relatively easily accessible water source for any kind of permanent settlement.
and the energy density of solar power is ridiculously low. fusion reactors would be best in systems with the appropriate resources - eg ours, with he3 from jupiter, and geothermal for planetoids with a warm core. i did read about using the rotation of the habitat cylinder to generate electricity from a planet's magnetic field, but im doubting thatll actually work.
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sneakey pete

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #109 on: November 06, 2009, 07:39:03 pm »

I also doubt that fusion will actually work within a relevant timeframe. Or be compact enough.
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Dwarf

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #110 on: November 07, 2009, 05:45:57 am »

2.Water needs-Simply bring alot of water on the colony ship and COMPLETELY reuse it in a treatment plant.
8.Energy-Solar PANELS! As well as a nuclear power plant, if ever needed.

because we can completely reuse water. and because kids dont need any. you need a relatively easily accessible water source for any kind of permanent settlement.
and the energy density of solar power is ridiculously low. fusion reactors would be best in systems with the appropriate resources - eg ours, with he3 from jupiter, and geothermal for planetoids with a warm core. i did read about using the rotation of the habitat cylinder to generate electricity from a planet's magnetic field, but im doubting thatll actually work.

Thus, solar power is still the best possibilty. Fusion is probably not properly developed till we get on the moon, and nuclear would require frequent shippings of uranium (veeery expensive). Although maybe the moon's got splittable elements, after some refining.
For the first years, solar power will have to work.
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Twiggie

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #111 on: November 07, 2009, 08:29:55 am »

fusion isnt that far away - estimates at around 50 years for a fully working commercial reactor. its not like we're gonna start space colonisation til then anyway
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Maggarg - Eater of chicke

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #112 on: November 07, 2009, 10:24:42 am »

Fusion has been about 30 years away for about thirty years, as the old scientific joke goes.
Nuclear fusion isn't strictly necessary to colonise the moon, as there's always good ol' fission, considering it might be a bit easier to dispose of the waste on the moon. However, fusion is always a good idea in my opinion, and in this day, I reckon it really is only 30-70 years away.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 12:30:47 pm by Maggarg - Eater of chicke »
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Twiggie

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #113 on: November 07, 2009, 10:27:37 am »

Fusion has been about 30 years away for about thirty years, as the old scientific joke goes.
Nuclear fusion isn't strictly necessary to colonise the moon, as there's always good ol' fission, considering it might be a bit easier to dispose of the waste on the moon. However, fusion is always a good idea in my opinion, and in this day, I reckon it really is only 30-70 years away.
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Maggarg - Eater of chicke

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #114 on: November 07, 2009, 12:31:49 pm »

whoops. Edited and fixed it. I apologise if my brazen error upset scientific persons of a delicate constitution.
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qwertyuiopas

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #115 on: November 07, 2009, 01:08:29 pm »

Fusion has been around for a long time, it's just fusion with net energy gain that has always been 30 years away.
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Maggarg - Eater of chicke

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #116 on: November 07, 2009, 01:20:50 pm »

Fusion has been around for a long time, it's just fusion with net energy gain that has always been 30 years away.
This is essentially what I refer to. I think there's a South Korean project that's trying to break even.
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Twiggie

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #117 on: November 07, 2009, 02:08:37 pm »

theres also two european ones, JET in england which is shutting down soon, and ITER in france which is coming online soon.
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Nadaka

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #118 on: November 07, 2009, 04:31:34 pm »

I do a lot of thinking about space colonization, I love sci-fi and have a pretty strong science background.

Power
We could be within 10 years of break even fusion. But the facilities to take advantage of it are huge, and the cost of lifting one to the moon would make it pointless.

On the moon, you have a 28 day solar cycle. That makes solar power undesirable for running a human occupied facility because our battery technology sucks, the cost, size and weight of batteries to keep a colony running for 14 days is to big. There is an alaskan town with a multi-billion dollar battery storage facility that weighs millions of kg and takes up a warehouse the size of a football field, it can keep the town powered for less than a day in the event of grid failure. For mars, solar makes a fair amount of sense, the power/meter^2 is lower than earth due to distance, but some of that is made up for because the atmosphere is thinner and absorbs less energy on the way in.

We can put a simple self contained fission plant with a couple dozen megawatts of output in a semi trailer (including the power turbine and steam condenser. That would likely be the ideal base load power for a lunar colony. small enough to transport, easy to use, and can run for years without refueling. I would probably also supplement this with an array of solar reflectors that directly heat a furnace for materials processing.

Life support
Yes, we really can reuse 100% of water in a self contained facility. You will need condensers to remove water from the air that has been exhaled by living things and sewage treatment to recover waste water. Use of concrete as a major building material may be discouraged on the moon as it can be a major consumer of limited water resources through chemical action.

Like water, air can be recycled. Nitrogen generally has stable atmospheric concentrations, moving back and forth between the soil at a balanced rate due to organic processes. Oxygen can be replenished via plants converting CO2. Concrete tends to absorb oxygen over time by reacting with CO2, however its manufacture also releases oxygen (as CO2) and would approximately balance out over time. 40% of the lunar surface is oxygen, most of it in oxides with silicon, iron and aluminum. While local glass manufacture will not liberate oxygen, the processing of pure silicon would. As would the processing of iron and aluminum for the structural components of a colony.

Building Materials
An important part of starting a major off world colony is automated site preparation. It is simply infeasible with our current bulk lift capacity to transport raw materials for colony construction from earth. The surface of the moon can be processed locally to produce glass, iron, aluminum, oxygen, magnesium, titanium, etc. The design and construction of a small scale automated smelter capable of doing this is possible, though it is a non-trivial engineering and metallurgy problem. Iron can be purified magnetically, oxygen can be baked out at high temperatures, everything else would require chemical (difficult to make sustainable) or centrifugal (mechanically challenging and time consuming) processing.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 04:33:36 pm by Nadaka »
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qwertyuiopas

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Re: Space colonization[IRL]
« Reply #119 on: November 07, 2009, 04:59:14 pm »

or centrifugal (mechanically challenging and time consuming) processing.
Time consuming can be offset by starting early. Mechanically challenging just means that you can send a more limited number of units, because they would likely have to be larger to ensure operation.

Start 5 years early, with basic solar powered harvesting and processing robots, later send fabrication, and then construction. By the time the fabrication robots arrive, there will be a good stockpile of  raw materials, and by the time the actual construction begins, some/all of the modules would be finished.

Better: Send harvesting/refinement units first, then as soon as possible, robot fabrication.


If all of that is feasable, it should work for the colonization of any location.
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