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[Neruz]

There's actually a thread on the WotC forums comparing the classes 4e has right now (with the PHB3) in comparison to the classes 3.5 has right now (all official products).

The conclusion is that 4e has more balanced and functional classes than 3.5 ever had. Alot of the newer classes also get unique mechanics specific to them (like Monks and their Full Disciplines or Psions and their Power Points). 3.5's diversity is indeed huge (as you would expect considering how long it lasted), but it's balanced and functional diversity, as you saw from the Tier's thread, is minute.


4e also takes a much more 'generic' style, in that each class follows a very specific archetype which is then customised into a broader range of concepts via feats, Paragon and Epic Paths.

There are ovbiously pros and cons to each system, one perfectly valid pro to 3.5 is the sheer mass of products released for the system, one somewhat more dubious pro is how almost everything is spelled out in numbers and stats; i'm personally not so hot on that, but i can understand people who like it.



It's also valid to say that the first few levels of 4e are very much a 'tutorial' of sorts. Your powers and the things you can do are extremely limited until the latter half of the Heroic tier, and you don't really start pulling out your proper class diversity until Paragon. Alot of games i know start at around level 7, or level 11 with experienced players so they don't have to go through the earlier stages where you only have 1 or 2 encounter and daily powers, no real utilities to speak of and have to keep falling back on at-will spam.



Also; a quick check of the Charbuilder tells me that 4e currently has 25 fully functional and balanced classes, each different from the other and many of which that bring a whole new gameplay mechanic into play.

It also contains balanced Hybrid rules, allowing you to combine two classes together into a whole new class, which pushes the number of 'classes' up to 325

[Heron TSG]

Actually, it brings it up to 600. 25x24, you see. Unless there are some that can't mix.

[RAM]

I dislike 4e because you can't make any actions yourself, everything is just a multiple choice questionnaire...

[Neruz]

I dislike 4e because you can't make any actions yourself, everything is just a multiple choice questionnaire...

[Rooster]

How different is that from class features of 3.5?

[RAM]

Well, you take the basic attack action, then you apply feats, like combat expertise, suddenly you get to choose how much AC you have, or sneak attack, so you get bonus damage if you meet the conditions, or improved grapple to let you disable someone, or combine them all to be nigh invulnerable till you pull off a grapple, then pin them and start kneeing them in their favourite things, and it is still just a basic attack action. Or you take a boring old attack spell and build it up with metamagics and turn it into spell likes or something with archmage, well, okay, spells were always kind of a multiple choice deal, but at least you could customise your available spells a little, now everyone is a mage, with spells that are either unlimited or single use, and you just choose whether you will be melee or ranged, and deal more side effects or more damage. And of course you need to memorise all the other player's characters to be sure you don't heal them above bloodied when they were counting on it for an ability, or get in the way of someone's charge, or divide the battlefield when someone wanted to use an area effect daily. So you need to memorise more and yet have fewer options. I just find the system to be incredibly dull, I am only allowed to do one of the things that I am given, I don't get to make anything for myself. It is, of course, much more balanced, that is what happens when you don't let anyone do anything for themselves.

*sighs* I wasn't going to complain about 4e...

[Neruz]

That entire post is wrong. Excellent work.

For example: The Fighter Power Brash Strike - get a +2 bonus to your attack (and deal moar damage if you're using a certain weapon tyle) but trade off granting Combat Advantage to enemies.

Invigorating Powers - get Temp HP when you use them



Sneak Attack? That's right there, Rogues have it, it's their class feature. Bugbears get a Racial Sneak Attack variant, and every Striker in the game has their own way of dealing extra conditional damage.


Your comment that 'it's still just a basic attack action' is kind of because in 3.5 a basic attack action is all you have. Unless you pull out Tome of Battle, which introduces alot of mechanics that operate similar to 4e's powers and is also (ironically) considered the one way to bring non-magic classes up to somewhere at least near par with magic classes.

And of course you need to memorise all the other player's characters to be sure you don't heal them above bloodied when they were counting on it for an ability,

Or you could, you know, communicate with your party :| "Hey Barb, want a heal?"




I'm not sure i can continue futher, suffice to say that not a single statement you made in that post is correct. And i have no idea what you mean by "I don't get to make anything for myself.", but really, it looks like you just trotted out the knee-jerk reaction to 4e that is also completely wrong.

I don't mind if you guys dislike 4e for legit reasons, but disliking it based in blatant falsehoods makes me a sad panda

[Shoruke]

nom bang flee?

(eats, shoots and leaves)

[tehstefan]

Well, as for what I think of 4e, my only little qualm is that it does feel a bit, well, limited. As of course, this is very low leveled, its far too early to pass judgement, but 3.5 just seemed more open to me. Whether this holds true the longer I play, we will see, but for now I'm hoping it gets more expansive and interesting as we go.

Not really worried considering our DM.

[Neruz]

I've still got Rule 0; feel free to come up with wierd and elaborate things you want to do, 4e's DMG even encourages me to give you phat bonases for being awesome.

The Powers just give you sort of 'preset templates' of elaborate stuff you can do. You can still leap off a balcony, swing across a chandelier and kick the villain in the face.

[Akigagak]

Also, Page 42.

It is the answer to everything not mentioned elsewhere.

[tehstefan]

hrrm...I think if I managed to roll that, I should get a plus +2 bonus to being awesome for the rest of the game.

[Neruz]

Long term bonases will come from Strongholds

I'd probably let you get some bonuses to attack and\or damage and let you throw in an intimidate check to make all his minions poop themselves if you pulled it off.

[Neruz]

Also i might be a little late tomorrow morning; i've just noticed i stayed up until half-past midnight again. Bad Neruz.

[userpay]

I'll probably be about 2 hours late, its not really worth the gas to head home for half an hour before going back to school for a club meeting. This will likely become a regular occurance.