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Yes, too much value is gained from spoils of war.  There should be more emphasis on crafting your own goods.

123 (65.4%)

Yes, but it's unbalanced on purpose so that you can worry about more important things if you choose.  It's a design decision.

37 (19.7%)

No, the trade system feels balanced just fine as it is.

24 (12.8%)

No, in fact they aren't valuable enough, and I feel like I should earn more for fending off intruders!

4 (2.1%)

Total Members Voted: 188

Voting closed: December 08, 2009, 10:03:30 pm

[Jiri Petru]

To all the people who want cloth reprocessing - are you really, really sure? Can you really imagine somebody striping the corpses, then washing and reusing their clothes? I frankly doubt anyone in history did it on an industrial scale, which is what we're talking about. And even on an individual scale, it feels unthinkable for most cultures.

I don't know, the idea of cloth/leather reprocessing industry and jobs in workshop seems very, very gamey. I'd rather leave everything to rot. And if it is put in the game, make it available only for kobolds and modders, please!

Stealing valuable pieces of clothing, expensive clothes, etc? Sure, why not, but these don't need reprocessing jobs. But the default way of handling clothes from dead bodies should be never to touch them.

[Granite26]

except that before the industrial production of clothing, robbing someone for their garments was a common occurance.  EVERY piece of clothing was valuable.

[eerr]

except that before the industrial production of clothing, robbing someone for their garments was a common occurance.  EVERY piece of clothing was valuable.

so if all you had was the "shirt on your back"

you actually had something?

[mendonca]

He's talking about market saturation.  If these traders just bought three bins with stone crafts, and you offer them more stone crafts... realistically they should not be very enthusiastic.  How many stone crafts do they need anyways?

If you read carefully, the post encompasses a bit more than that.

then they'd devalue it heavilly, not only because it's GCS silk but also because it wasn't made by your dwarves.

I think this is true. These guys coming with their caravans would know what the are doing, and after you brought out the sixth bin of stone goods, they would know you are swimming in this shit.

The likelihood is he would try it on and seek to get less than the world value of the goods.

With the trade / caravan arc, if the trader comes back next year with the same bin of stone crafts he swapped for a steel sword last time (no-one on his trip wanted them) I doubt he would want any more off you as well.

[Granite26]

except that before the industrial production of clothing, robbing someone for their garments was a common occurance.  EVERY piece of clothing was valuable.

so if all you had was the "shirt on your back"

you actually had something?

Well just think... the Industrial Revolution was supposedly all about steel and coal and trains, but what were all those trains moving around?  What were the steel machines making?  Who was Ned Ludd?

[Funk]

looting the dead guy clothing happens
because:
clothing had a higer cost and was a lot less comen
marching troops often only have 1 change of cloths if that.
his stuff(weapon/armor/cloths is better than yours.


 

[Neonivek]

Funk please work on your post next time. It hurts my brain (it really does)

I wouldn't say everything was looted. Usually only the expencive articles of clothing. Namely boot, coat, and jewelry.

[MrLobster]

To all the people who want cloth reprocessing - are you really, really sure? Can you really imagine somebody striping the corpses, then washing and reusing their clothes? I frankly doubt anyone in history did it on an industrial scale, which is what we're talking about. And even on an individual scale, it feels unthinkable for most cultures.

Oh I can absolutely imagine the clothing of dead soldiers getting stripped and salvaged by enterprising peasants. Ever heard of a rag and bone man? And you do realize we're talking about dwarves, not historic cultures or an industrial scale, right?

Anyway I also think that many of the clothes the invaders come in should have wear, and that would make it less reusable. And what happens in the vanilla game now to clothes from dead invaders is far, far more unbelievable and silly.

I don't know, the idea of cloth/leather reprocessing industry and jobs in workshop seems very, very gamey. I'd rather leave everything to rot. And if it is put in the game, make it available only for kobolds and modders, please!

Bone bolts don't seem gamey to you?

[Jiri Petru]

Bone bolts feel a bit gamey, too, but that doesn't say anything about clothes  Having one gamey thing in the game doesn't mean you have to take all of them, does is? 

clothing had a higer cost and was a lot less comen

I would argue, but I admit this is a big, big IMHO. No insult meant.

Anyway, I disagree. Clothes weren't rare and expensive - everyone had at least one dirty, smelly set of clothes, which is enough not to loot another dirty, smelly set from a dead body. Every family was able to make its own cheap clothes of linen, wool, or whatever. Like these:



Nobody would loot their stuff!
And to imagine reprocessing it!

Things that were expensive and therefore lootworthy were those made of better materials, of exceptional craft or otherwise rare. Belts, boots, and perhaps leather in general (there you go, I admit you probably could reuse leather). But nobody would loot a medieval peasant's sock or tunic or cap or thongs or whatever. In DF terms, nobody should be interested in used pig tail and plant fiber clothes, unless they are very well made.

 

[Jiri Petru]

Double post, sorry.

Anyway, to clarify my thoughts: I'm not against looting dead bodies and taking their stuff. I'm not against looting socks and trousers - that should definitely remain in the game. I'm against their industrial processing and reusing.

[GlyphGryph]

I think the big issue is twofold:

first: everyone in a civ seems to wear the most valuable thing that civ has to offer, hence all the GCS silk goblins! If theres a single source of GCS silk in the kingdom, boom, everyone instantly owns it.

second: Merchants claim to want certain things and not want others, but it certainly doesn't seem like it. There should be almost no market for pieces of clothing/armor the merchant's race can't wear. We need a realistic system of demand at some point, but until then there are a couple simply ways to do this. Bonus? Unless your making clothes/armor specifically FOR humans/elves/other races, they wont want them! (And at some point, of course, we should have the option of making armor/clothes for other races)

Its definitely kind of absurd the way it is, though.

[Granite26]

robe (n.) 
c.1275, from O.Fr. robe "long, loose outer garment," originally "plunder, booty," from a Gmc. source (cf. O.H.G. rouba "vestments," presumably those taken from the enemy as spoils), from W.Gmc. *rauba, the stem that also yielded rob (v.). The verb is recorded from 1377. Metonymic sense of "the legal profession" is attested from 1647.

Just sayin'....

[MrLobster]

Bone bolts feel a bit gamey, too, but that doesn't say anything about clothes  Having one gamey thing in the game doesn't mean you have to take all of them, does is? 

Well, reusing cloth isn't gamey, it's realistic. And even if it were gamey, taking this one more thing doesn't mean you have to take all of them, either   Designate that slippery slope for removal.

Anyway, I disagree. Clothes weren't rare and expensive - everyone had at least one dirty, smelly set of clothes, which is enough not to loot another dirty, smelly set from a dead body. Every family was able to make its own cheap clothes of linen, wool, or whatever.

I'm not sure if a Monty Python screencap proves anything. Try some Dickens.. The world is a grim place, and shit ain't wasted. It's fun asserting stuff repeatedly, without proof!

[Dvergar]

As valuable as spoils of war are I have always been able to purchase all non-trade goods from the caravan starting with the very first dwarven caravan, creating stone mugs is so simple, effective, and even neccessary in order to create stockpile areas.

Compared to stone-crafting, all other trade goods fall short, metal-working, textiles, and gem cutting may create more wealth, but require more micro-managing and infrastructure, and are thus unneccessary

Sorry if that is too far off topic...

[Jiri Petru]

I'll repeat myself one more time. Sorry if I'm a bother, I really don't want to be rude or anything. It's just that I sometimes like to argue on the internet... and so do you if you read this, presumably. 

Ok, to put the proposal to reprocess clothing to some perspective, imagine this: a medieval town, year 1400 or whatever. There's a siege that gets violently broken, lots of dead attackers everywhere. The gates of the town open, the citizens flooding out to strip the dead bodies naked. They take the clothes inside the town, wash them all, then make new clothes, bandages, bags, ropes and other stuff from them. This is basically what would happen in DF.

I really, really don't like this idea. It all depends on the scale. Individual looting is fine, but I wouldn't say the industrial reprocessing is "realistic".

Granite26, your quote is amazing and made me loose my ground for a while... but I would argue that the fact the people looted robes means the robes were rare and expensive. They wouldn't loot them if they were common and cheap, right? And they certainly wouldn't have reprocessed them.