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[spinsane]

I really enjoy the premise and depth of this game and even more just the learning experience... but...

After you get your head around the mechanics, is there anything remotely challenging about the game itself (aside from user-created challenges/mega constructions/wastes of time)? From playing DF, I gather that it is essentially simAnt*Rogue in a persistent world. Roguelikes are a lot of fun because thr difficulty risk of dying typically increases proportionally with time spent playing. Roguelikes basically test your patience to advance to more challenging areas. If you set out in difficult places too early, you get deaded without any chance of reloading. with such a great deal riding on the life of your character, there is a certain intimacy and realism in how you play the game- it is first and foremost a question of survival. Dwarf Fortress manages to make a similar impression at first glance, but... I think I've found the game to be a little too ridiculously easy.

I'm a complete DF noob, so I think it's important to outline where my point of view is coming from.

With there being no clear objective, the only substantive measure of score is 'created wealth,' which ends up being porportional to population and the degree to which immigrants are attracted. In this sense, maximizing immigration as quickly as possible also makes the game as challenging as possible as quickly as possible (as your created wealth also attracts goblins/kobolds etc). As a result, Created Wealth/time is ultimately the best way to measure how effective your fortress is running. With this in mind, I set about creating the fastest and most efficient 'created wealth' team I could possibly manage. I took a High Savage/Evil zone over an obsidian biome because I thought it would be more challenging...

Stonecrafter/Appraiser
Carpenter/Book Keeper
Miner/Thresher
Miner/Engraver
Grower/Brewer
Grower/Cook
Herbalist/Wood Cutter/Axedwarf

I think starting with an anvil is an absolute waste (despite the fact that your wood cutter's axe only costs 30p if you do), so I'll just say that I brought 2 picks, 1 axe, lots of meat, 3 cows, 6 war dogs, a cat, and lots of seeds and your typical 30 food/60 drink- also quite a few extra bags.

My carpenter is full-time making barrels, bins, beds, tables, doors and thrones (in this sense a mason in the beginning is pointless unless you've got obsidian).
I have a stonecrafter making crafts 24/7 from the excess stone that my miners are producing.
I mine out 4 4x4 plots for farming and set them all to different things. I also mine out dormitories (a room/office/dining room for every dwarf) and a mess hall/barracks. My farms are directly over my food stockpile/kitchen/still/mill/farmer's workshop/clothier/dyer, which is directly over another food stockpile with butcher/tanner/cows (obviously not all this stuff is doing work yet).
My war dogs on the axedwarf/wood cutter ensures that I am never bothered by early skeletons.

So my farmers are focusing on sweet pod and quarry bush. The idea is quite simple, A gathered whip vine + Dwarven Syrup + a stack of quarry leaves + Meat (q3) = a ridiculous amount of created wealth. Syrup pads the value, quarry leaves increase stack, q3 meats are inexpensive from the beginning and yield lots of end value, and whip vines are fairly common and more valuable than most plants. If you ever hit this roast on a 'masterpiece' level the stack is easily worth 7k created wealth. When you have a cook doing nothing but making lavish meals where most of your ingredients are limited to syrup and leaves, your created wealth explodes. Your dwarves are also treated to some pretty awesome meals.

Stone Crafter and Carpenter supplement this by producing lots of trade product and infrastructure to make people happy. Your miners are making large apartments, the stone of which fuels your stone crafter. It all just works out TOO nicely. I think Stone Crafting is bugged, in that my stone crafter makes more than several masterpieces a minute...

So you can easily generate over 100k wealth in the first year with 7 dwarves, I imagine if you drop the stonecrafter and extra miner, you could just do 4 dual-class growers (cook, brewer, thresher, herbalist) and lots of farms and your wealth would just explode... regardless, by the time the dwarven caravan came, I could buy just about everything they had (although I didn't need anything, just wanted to up my export/import wealths) + I could donate all my remaining stone crafts to ensure happy relations. After my stone stockpile is oversized, I can stop mining and start smoothing my interiors to make everything look nice.

I then expand into more housing projects for the expected immigrants (designing up to 24 rooms + current population). At this point, the ONLY micromanaging I have to do is mining/engraving designations and furniture insallations. My carpenter needs a few varying jobs tasked, but my food industry requires absolutely no management (with the exception of disabling the automated kitchen so that clutter is removed).

My first wave of immigrants, using this method, typically jumps me up to 25-30 population.

Clothing industry begins. Clothing is pretty ridiculous in that it involves 3 levels of quality improvement. The weaver, dyer, and clothier all add to quality, so it's no surprise that clothes become very valuable (and also make your people happy). Your bag needs are met, you can now have above ground farming, butching/tanning, masonry (statues!), extra wood cutters and strip mining for ores/gems.

Metal industry also takes off, with 2 24/7 wood burners, 1 24/7 smelter, and a blacksmith. From here you can also start making ash for potash to further increase the ridiculousness of your farms. Essentially, metal is only useful for making weapons/armor for your military and is somewhat pointless as an export (unless it is a non-military metal, in which case- detailing ftw), so melting down weapons after they're made is a pretty easy way to recycle low-quality equipment and up the skill level.

It's also typically no trouble to be buying out everything from each trade caravan while giving them 100%+ profits (easily doable in the second year).

The second immigration wave unlocks fishing, bone carving, hunting, gems and the remaining petty crafts. Getting an army of masons for stone blocks and constructions as well as extra smoothers can really streamline future projects, your army is also pretty huge by now (though it isn't like it has to do anything with how lazy goblins are). 2-3 artifacts have already been made and sit in the meeting hall, your happiness is unrivaled, your military is huge, your created wealth is growing exponentially with population, you welcome nobles because they actually give you something to do...

...and now it's boring (after about 12 hours of total play), with nothing to do except double up peasants into mining, wood cutting, block making and eventually crafts. The survivalistic appeal of the rogue-like is lost. It just seems like there are no possible negative repercussions for any decision that you make, only the possibility of making a bad decision with respect to the opportunity cost. The tediousness of managing everything in the first 2 seasons is a very very HIGH learning curve but also very SHORT. Afterwards any challenging aspects of the game are nonexistent. Random encounters early on only add to the tediousness a little bit and don't actually make the game more difficult.

Understandably, the game is an alpha. The military aspect of the game is set to be evolved into something more intuitive and global, which I'm looking forward to, but... I'm still a bit concerned about this issue of reaching boredom in such a short time. I've played rogue-likes where I have felt an aversion just to opening the game (IVAN), the possibility of losing a high level character can be something that you almost don't even want to face.

I feel that Dwarf Fortress lacks the progressive difficulty that you may typically find in a rogue-like. I do look forward to further versions with a greater complexity of military and diplomacy options (it'd be neat if you had to send out emissaries, build protective pacts, prevent goblins from taking over the world, and then take over the world yourself- enslaving other civilizations, putting down rebellions...) as well as a greater need* for military to begin with.

*I found that, given certain conditions, having any military is almost pointless. Pumping water up to the top of a mountain from a brook, then out to flood the roof of the mountain up over the edge into your valley floor is quite amusing...

Anyhow, this is kind of a rant... After the learning the curve, I was very disappointed, but am greatly looking forward to future installments.

I really just want to know if my first impressions are accurate or not. Can the game eventually become more challenging? Or is it plagued by montonous redundancy? I can see that being resolved in the future with more advanced military/diplomacy options, but with what we ahve now, how far on/off am I?

[Derakon]

If you read the "what are your secrets to designing fortresses" thread, you'll find a lot of suggestions for very efficient fortresses, and a lot of suggestions to just ignore that and make fortresses that have interesting designs. DF is a simulation / sandbox game, so you have to make your own challenges. This is why megaprojects are so popular.

You're unlikely to lose (in the sense of killing all your dwarves or being forced to abandon), but you can be adequately challenged by the puzzles inherent in a good design anyway. For example, you might try to set up your fortress to be immune to a hypothetical digging enemy by surrounding your tunnels and rooms with a labyrinth of magma-filled tunnels. If that's too easy, set it up so you can selectively flood and then drain each room in your fortress. You can see how all the logistics of laying out your tunnels, setting up the appropriate floodgates and powered pumps, and so on could make for an impressive challenge, yes?

[Gergination]

I agree with Derakon here.  Fortress design and mega constructions are the difficulty of the game (vanilla at least).  You make up challenges and see what you can do within the constraints of the game.

If you're looking for more of a challenge in the form of getting everyone killed.  Try embarking in an a god-forsaken area.  Like a terrifying glacier with no magma.  See how far you make it with those conditions.

Alternatively, there are plenty of mods that add in horrific creatures more than able and willing to tear your dwarves to shreds.

[zwei]

I really just want to know if my first impressions are accurate or not. Can the game eventually become more challenging? Or is it plagued by montonous redundancy? I can see that being resolved in the future with more advanced military/diplomacy options, but with what we ahve now, how far on/off am I?

It is really redundant and monotonous only if you fixate on wealth-score and using fairly 'cheap' strategy to try to maximize that, you will soon discover that you are not having much fun.

But that goes for any game, really. Roguelike where you pick 'best' class and 'best' strategy and take no risks can be very easy and boring too.

Anyhow, I think you are fooled by ascii graphics ... And playing wrong mode. If you want roguelike-experience, adventure mode is just one menu item away. Fortress is more of 'sandobx toy' where you basically mess around and try to do cool stuff or stuff you feel like doing. I would not look for difficulty there, just fun.

[Reese]

I don't know if all of this would count for you, but...

there's extra challenge once the economy kicks in and if you embarked in a place with happy fun stuff (though that second challenge can be completely trivialized if you know how to deal with it, atleast until certain game mechanics get a bit of an overhaul.)

personally, it's the sandbox, building, mega constructions that really drew me to play (oh, and boatmurdered), and that's what I usually focus on (honestly, I have never actually gotten to the economy... I don't even have any nobles aside from my mayor/bookkeeper/trader/manager in any fort I ever made, so I have no idea how challenging having it go in to effect really is.)

[Anti-Paragon]

If you're bored with the 3d version, why not try the old 2d one that stories like boatmurdered was founded on. The old version is a lot more difficult and you get access to all the resources; an underground river, a chasm, and magma guarenteed. But you also get ambushes from them from time to time. It's a heck of a lot more challenging than the more recent versions, survival wise.

You can no longer rewall, so every mistake in digging is permanent. You are forced to build a road for traders to reach your depot, which permits sieges as well, not to mention the sieges that come within your fort from the river/chasm/magma. Channeling can never be removed/undone. It's a whole other game, almost, where the focus is on action and surviving rather than how well you can block off your fort and grow like a mountain wart.

Edit: Also, per zwei's comment about adventure mode - I'd suggest against it in the 3d versions. As it is, the 3d ones let you visit some caves (although you have to locate it yourself on the world tile) and your forts. The old 2d version let you 'discover' the locations on the world map and once entered, you were right there. There was also other things beyond caves, like undead towers, and your lost forts visited in adventure mode had a lot more lethality, as they were overrun with monsters.

I really suggest you try it sometime.

[Dorf3000]

I really enjoy the premise and depth of this game and even more just the learning experience... but...

Long rant about how easy it is to create huge amounts of wealth/deal with sieges

There's two types of RPG players.  There are the True Role Players that enjoy the story, get into the feel of it and entertain themselves by thinking of neat/cool/impressive things to do in the spirit of the game lore.  Then there are the Min/Maxers that look at the game system and figure out the most efficient way to be the most powerful/wealthy character and collect the most amount of trinkets possible.  They then proceed to do that, get bored and then complain and move on to a different game.

One of these types of players usually enjoy themselves, the other type does not.

[Anti-Paragon]

One of these types of players usually enjoy themselves, the other type does not.

Now, now. No need to rib into people for how they perceive the game. I have the urge to explain why both views are all well and good on their own, but really, I don't want to derail the thread.

Either way, if spinsane wants to continue seeking new challenges, well enough. If he wants to join/start a community game, write a story off a fort, or even just amuse himself with his own imagination while playing, that's fine too. It's his copy of the game, after all.

Edit: Typo

[Ziusudra]

I'm really surprised nobody has mentioned adamantine yet.

[Neruz]

Dig into the clownhouse, don't cave it in, dig into it.

Once you've got to the point where you can survive the firey clownhouses, then it's time to start being silly.



Also, try the Orc mod. They will have their big green meaty way with you so hard you won't be able to sit down for weeks.

[RedWick]

Yeah, the 2D version had a sort of scaleable difficulty.  River, chasm, magma, beyond.  You could really screw yourself up if you pressed forward too quickly and weren't prepared for it.  My fingers are crossed about upcoming release, as Toady has said that he's putting the chance for random ambushes back into the game, like back in the 2D version.

[The Navigator]

I've never been one for megaprojects or efficiency/wealth. What I mostly get from the game is the little stories that inevitably crop up as you play, along with the challenge of trying to survive in hostile environments. Some things I do to increase difficulty:

• Modding - Generally along the lines of "the world is trying to kill you."
     -Civ Forge, modded so that every race is hostile
     -Added in the creatures from dangerous wilds and the bestiary, plus a few of my own (forests of 40-80 walking trees that chase anything on sight, size 20, damblock 15 and building destroyer... the only thing keeping them from raping the world is that they're really, really slow)
• Focus more on design than efficiency. Also AG forts, since they're more fun to build. I'll usually do one of two types, bailey or citadel.
  -Bailey: Generally a keep/meadhall with extra buildings for anything that's needed, surrounded by a defensive wall and maybe the occasional tower. Usually large buildings will get set into the wall itself.
  
  
  Spoiler (click to show/hide)

  
   Had some better examples but the saves ran off 
  
  -Citadel: Everything in one building. I'll lay out a basic ground plan and then build up as needed, planning each level as I go. This usually results in a nice, organic feel to it. Also gives the sense of being a single, safe haven in a hostile world.
  
  
  Spoiler (click to show/hide)

  5 yr old fort where a terrifying forest meets haunted ocean. The mayor, one of the original 7, murdered the other six in the first year including her husband. Much fun.
  
  
  This one I just started on last night. You can see the dinning hall is getting floored over and the partially constructed barracks in the back.
  
• No farming. Food is way too easy to get as it is, and without it the threat of famine can sometimes become a driving force in the game. I stumbled on this with a seaside above ground fortress in which I'd forgotten to bring plants/seeds, and thus couldn't farm. The surrounding lands and ocean were evil, so the plants and animals were all (un)dead, and the ocean was seriously lacking in catchable fish, even with a third of my population fishing. The result was an eternal search for food. Teams of professional rat-catchers roamed the halls to contribute a meager but vital food source. Puppies were eaten. Wealth was irrelevant, and waves of sticky-fingered, starving immigrants were fended off with catapult fire(yes, there are better ways, but catapults are more fun). I loved that fort. So yeah, no farming for me now. And usually you can gather enough from plants to be well stocked, you just need to maintain access to a large area of ground(this also means that sieges will cut you off from your food source, and are thus more dangerous).
• I don't use traps. And impenetrable defenses like drawbridges are a little iffy, only going in if they fit the fort's theme. Every siege gets fought off with soldiers if possible, and most of the fort revolves around this. Everyone receives military training of some kind as soon as they immigrate, and everyone fights during a siege. Bows/crossbows are a good early weapon, and you can mod in some custom stone weapons if you like.

Basically, I've been playing df for several months, and every time it starts to get old I find a new way to make it fun again. You get out of it what you put in, so don't give up just because you've mastered the metagame.

[Vicid]

Magma & Orcs

[Jude]

It's also a dice roll. Sometimes you'll just get stomped on by goblins or werewolves or what have you; sometimes you won't. Anyway, playing for maximum efficiency is a sure way to make the game not fun. There ARE ways to make yourself invincible to goblins (entrance hallway packed full of deadly traps) and probably to tantrum spirals (legendary dining room). But at this point in development, the game doesn't have any sure ways to kill you, so most players just avoid powergaming because it makes things more fun.

[PopeRichardCorey]

Sounds boring.  But...

My first wave of immigrants, using this method, typically jumps me up to 25-30 population.

If you're going for wealth/time, you are not doing that great a job.  My first wave of immigrants bumps me up to ~50 when I focus on wealth creation.  So maybe beating that can be a challenge for you.

Also: if you want a challenge, make yourself a challenge.  Flip the bird to the elves; steal their stuff and then kill them until they come after you.  Chop down trees that you don't even need.  Flip the bird to the humans; they're easier since they'll send diplomats.  I don't think you can get the dwarves to siege, but if you ignore the caravans, you'll get less free stuff.

Not to mention the economy; have you never had the economy start?  That can get pretty tough.  And how about a megaproject.  You're simulating a world here, not just some robotic efficiency machines.  Once they get sufficiently awesome, people say "We need a way to show everyone how awesome we are.  Let's build a giant bronze statue astride our dock.  Or how about some giant tombs that point to our favorite stars?"

Add in orcs.  Stop flooding out sieges, since that's a pretty unepic way to do it.