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Author Topic: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?  (Read 6326 times)

Servant Corps

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So the Elves has just found out that Dwarves are committing Tree Genocide. Usually the Elves' first instinct is to declare war on the Dwarves and either hilariously win or hilarious lose. But war is a bit too extreme. Why can't there be other ways to pressure Dwarves?

1) Peaceful Protests. (The least effective of all
2) Diplomatic Sanctions. (Sending in a diplomat and telling them that they refuse to trade until no more trees are cut)
3) Sabatoging the Fortress (for example, elves can cast spells on Trees to let the Trees Be Able To Defend Themselves)
4) Propaganda Directed to Dwarves to make them believe the same Ethics as that Civilization
5) Bribing Nobles To Make Mandates That Will Enforce a Civilization's Ethics (The Baron says, "NO CUTTING DOWN TREES!")

Anything else that could be done?
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thobal

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Re: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2009, 03:43:09 pm »

I once stole a bunch of booze from the elves and my stream soon filled with angry carp.
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BurnedToast

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Re: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2009, 03:46:51 pm »

Elves declare war at the drop of a tree because that gives us an excuse to kill them - they know they only exist to die and be made into totems and bone bolts so they go along with it.

If Elves ever stopped declaring war they would become (even more) useless.
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Atarlost

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Re: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2009, 04:23:10 pm »

All of the OP suggested alternatives are modern.  Back pre-1400 war was pretty much it as far as diplomacy is concerned.  You couldn't even reliably sanction someone because of smuggling.  (today, of course, you can't rerliably sanction someone because of Russia)
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Geb

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Re: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 04:35:11 pm »

Quote from: Atarlost
All of the OP suggested alternatives are modern.  Back pre-1400 war was pretty much it as far as diplomacy is concerned. ...

Propoganda is probably period appropriate, but not setting appropriate. I can't imagine it working very well on such an insular community as a dwarf settlement.

Really the current siege system is more of a gentle hint than true warfare: a few small squads of raiders making a nuisance of themselves. All that is needed to complete the picture is for warring nations to continue sending diplomats between attacks before escalating to bigger sieges.
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Saber Cherry

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Re: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 04:43:59 pm »

I've never had elves declare war on me, and I cut down tons of trees.  Every year I am requested to limit my harvest to 100, and every year I say no.  Is there something I'm doing wrong?

Of course, it would be a terrible shame to lose elven trade, because I have no other way of getting exotic animals or wooden weapons.  I've finally gotten breeding pairs of giant jaguars and giant leopards.  Once I have a second alligator, perhaps I wouldn't mind if they attacked...  but they just don't seem very warlike.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 04:49:17 pm »

I've never had elves declare war on me, and I cut down tons of trees.  Every year I am requested to limit my harvest to 100, and every year I say no.  Is there something I'm doing wrong?

Of course, it would be a terrible shame to lose elven trade, because I have no other way of getting exotic animals or wooden weapons.  I've finally gotten breeding pairs of giant jaguars and giant leopards.  Once I have a second alligator, perhaps I wouldn't mind if they attacked...  but they just don't seem very warlike.

Possibly, you buy so much stuff from the Elves that they are willing to tolerate you cutting down trees and refusing their harvest caps, just for the chance to make BIGBUXS. Maybe.
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Capntastic

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Re: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 05:52:25 pm »

Yeah, there's going to be something called the Diplomacy Arc.   Keep in mind the game is still in alpha.
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darkflagrance

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Re: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 05:54:18 pm »

All of the OP suggested alternatives are modern.  Back pre-1400 war was pretty much it as far as diplomacy is concerned.  You couldn't even reliably sanction someone because of smuggling.  (today, of course, you can't rerliably sanction someone because of Russia)

What????????????????

Don't be so quick to assume that even Europeans were that primitive before 1400.

So the Elves has just found out that Dwarves are committing Tree Genocide. Usually the Elves' first instinct is to declare war on the Dwarves and either hilariously win or hilarious lose. But war is a bit too extreme. Why can't there be other ways to pressure Dwarves?

1) Peaceful Protests. (The least effective of all
2) Diplomatic Sanctions. (Sending in a diplomat and telling them that they refuse to trade until no more trees are cut)
3) Sabatoging the Fortress (for example, elves can cast spells on Trees to let the Trees Be Able To Defend Themselves)
4) Propaganda Directed to Dwarves to make them believe the same Ethics as that Civilization
5) Bribing Nobles To Make Mandates That Will Enforce a Civilization's Ethics (The Baron says, "NO CUTTING DOWN TREES!")

Anything else that could be done?

1) Of course; just send the diplomat.
2) Excommunication by the church - the Catholic Church was akin to an international political system before it weakened post-Reformation
3/5) Sabotage and other  espionage activity have always been a part of warfare regardless of time and place, even if it is downplayed in commonly known history. The same of course goes for bribery.
4) via religion? Considering that elven ethics is related to their worship of natural forces, it would probably take the form of druids infiltrating the fortress and converting dwarves to the anti-Armokian way.

Yet another option is economic blockade; elves persuade friendly civilizations to cut off trade with you.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 05:57:01 pm by darkflagrance »
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Silverionmox

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Re: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 06:05:08 pm »

All of the OP suggested alternatives are modern.  Back pre-1400 war was pretty much it as far as diplomacy is concerned.  You couldn't even reliably sanction someone because of smuggling.  (today, of course, you can't rerliably sanction someone because of Russia)
- Peaceful protests of course happened, but they aren't documented very well.. because they were so common. Paper is cheap, as well as papyrus, wax tables and clay tablets.

- Trade sanctions: controlling trade always has been a tool of power. Who gets the tolls, the staple rights, the mill, etc. ? A step further towards war is blockading ports or trade routes.

- Sabotage was less common, because there was less infrastructure and destroying something required an army anyway due to the lack of explosives. Raiding and plundering, burning fields as a war of attrition instead of a confrontation was common practice, however.

- Propaganda: not as flexible as the modern version, but sponsoring religions/missionaries is an ancient practice. There still is pretty direct stuff, eg. the Mesopotamian kings that deified themselves, or the Egyptian Pharaohs that put up steles to commemorate their victories.

- Outright bribing was less common in times with less monetary means, but promising a count a promotion to duke if he switched allegiance from one king to another would have been considered.
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Kholint

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Re: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2009, 06:28:48 pm »

And aren't sieges just a super effective form of sanctions?

The whole trojan horse thing, real or not, is a (admittedly pretty specific) example of sabotage.

Wars have always been avoided by political means- marriages between members of the royal family to foster relations, and half of the time armies just faced up to each other without fighting to try and win the war. It wasn't until very recent times that we started getting massive causality rates in battles*. Most of the time the army just ran away or they didn't fight at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066
<=== there were a bunch of battles around about this time, but they were mostly the results of unsuccessful bids of power- kings of different countries claiming to be the rightful rulers of Great Britain.

(incidentally I have issues with this bizarre insistence on the year 1400 as having any relevance to the DF setting, a fantasy game with elves, dwarves and giant cave spiders, but that's another post for another day)


*funnily enough it started happening more or less when our rulers stopped leading their men into battle- any wonder why?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 06:31:09 pm by Kholint »
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Atarlost

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Re: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2009, 06:58:29 pm »

All of the OP suggested alternatives are modern.  Back pre-1400 war was pretty much it as far as diplomacy is concerned.  You couldn't even reliably sanction someone because of smuggling.  (today, of course, you can't rerliably sanction someone because of Russia)

What????????????????

Don't be so quick to assume that even Europeans were that primitive before 1400.

So the Elves has just found out that Dwarves are committing Tree Genocide. Usually the Elves' first instinct is to declare war on the Dwarves and either hilariously win or hilarious lose. But war is a bit too extreme. Why can't there be other ways to pressure Dwarves?

1) Peaceful Protests. (The least effective of all
2) Diplomatic Sanctions. (Sending in a diplomat and telling them that they refuse to trade until no more trees are cut)
3) Sabatoging the Fortress (for example, elves can cast spells on Trees to let the Trees Be Able To Defend Themselves)
4) Propaganda Directed to Dwarves to make them believe the same Ethics as that Civilization
5) Bribing Nobles To Make Mandates That Will Enforce a Civilization's Ethics (The Baron says, "NO CUTTING DOWN TREES!")

Anything else that could be done?

1) Of course; just send the diplomat.
2) Excommunication by the church - the Catholic Church was akin to an international political system before it weakened post-Reformation
3/5) Sabotage and other  espionage activity have always been a part of warfare regardless of time and place, even if it is downplayed in commonly known history. The same of course goes for bribery.
4) via religion? Considering that elven ethics is related to their worship of natural forces, it would probably take the form of druids infiltrating the fortress and converting dwarves to the anti-Armokian way.

Yet another option is economic blockade; elves persuade friendly civilizations to cut off trade with you.

1) diplomats rarely accomplish anything in reality, and never accomplish anyting in DF.  There is, therefore, no point to implemeting more diplomate except to annoy the player. 

2) There is no Catholic church in DF. 

3) So elves coming in like Kobolds and getting eaten by war dogs on their way to demolish your carpenter's shop.  Trying to pull something like that when not ready for real war is a good way to get invaded (see, for example, the Spanish American War, even if the Maine's demise probably had nothing to do with sabotage), and if you're ready for real war why not have a real war?

4) Possible, but like obnoxious nobles this would be anti-fun.  I would very much oppose adding this. 

5) Again, anti-fun.  Nobles are annoying enough allready.  Having them deliberately trying to destroy the fort is just going to make them more hated. 
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Dvergar

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Re: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2009, 08:36:52 pm »

This sounds fun, especially the sabotaging part  ;D, a living tree that can utilize wrestling grapples would definitely take the cake for most rediculously deadly organism.

Pre-1400's was not so primitive as to see war as the only answer.  Wasn't it a Roman who said "War is an extention of politics..." or something similar

EDIT:  Plus, as seiges get more difficult (or at least stop being a frickin joke) the sanctions and diplomacy will likely become a prefered alternative, I forsee elves becoming incredibly bad-ass somewhere in the future, as the projectile physics takes shape cross-bows will fall behind and  the elves will likely excell
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 08:45:36 pm by Dvergar »
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shadowclasper

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Re: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2009, 08:51:43 pm »

All of the OP suggested alternatives are modern.  Back pre-1400 war was pretty much it as far as diplomacy is concerned.  You couldn't even reliably sanction someone because of smuggling.  (today, of course, you can't rerliably sanction someone because of Russia)
- Peaceful protests of course happened, but they aren't documented very well.. because they were so common. Paper is cheap, as well as papyrus, wax tables and clay tablets.

- Trade sanctions: controlling trade always has been a tool of power. Who gets the tolls, the staple rights, the mill, etc. ? A step further towards war is blockading ports or trade routes.

- Sabotage was less common, because there was less infrastructure and destroying something required an army anyway due to the lack of explosives. Raiding and plundering, burning fields as a war of attrition instead of a confrontation was common practice, however.

- Propaganda: not as flexible as the modern version, but sponsoring religions/missionaries is an ancient practice. There still is pretty direct stuff, eg. the Mesopotamian kings that deified themselves, or the Egyptian Pharaohs that put up steles to commemorate their victories.

- Outright bribing was less common in times with less monetary means, but promising a count a promotion to duke if he switched allegiance from one king to another would have been considered.
1) No, they really were NOT that common. At least not on a level that was taken seriously. There is a very good reason for this. FEUDALISM! The Great Chain of Being, Castes. All that. People were programed to think they were born into a position and HAD to listen to those above them for the most part. Education was not common, what was there reinforced the Great Chain of Being. You know what getting excommunicated in pre-1400's Europe meant? It was a death sentence. The Great Chain of Being was a part of the Catholic doctrine, and thus to deny the great chain (aka: protesting your better's actions in any way shape or form) was heresy.

2)Actually only in DF, period wise it was still not a valid method because most places were built to be self sufficent. Do you know how HARD it was to maintain communications and other things after the fall of the roman empire? Once their roads broke down? Trade in europe almost came to a stand still until the Bergs began to form (proto-cities). I'm not saying it wasn't happening, but the general concensus was that either A) my vassals give me the stuff I need from taxes and may request a tiny bit from me if they need it, or B) I can go raid my next door neighbors at lance and sword point and FORCE them to give me what I want, or C) I can do without.

If we're talking a full blown siege or blockade? Again, not common until the age of sea except for land based sieges. And those are basically what we go through now. NO GIANT CATAPULTS! NO TREBUCHETS! Just a bunch of guys camped outside taking any supplies meant for the City/Castle/Keep until somebody starts waving the white flag.

3)Sabatog has, and always WILL be a valid method of attack for any period. Espionage and assassination are the 2nd oldest professions in the world. It might not be attacking infrastructure. But poisoning a well is almost always just as effective. Or setting a field of crops on fire at night.

4)Yeah. Missionaries were about it. And that only worked on Heathen lands, and didn't stop the Crusaders from coming in and still lopping off christian heads. Sorry, the crusades ended more christian than Muslim lives by the end of them (and that is NOT including the crusader casualty list, nor those who the Muslim's killed. That's taking the kill list of the Crusaders ALONE).

5)This is the only place you've got it right. Not much, except in terms of "Hey, you want a higher position in MY government? and a huge ass portion of the land I'm about to conquer?"
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darkflagrance

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Re: Do we honestly need WAR Every Time Somebody Does Something Unethical?
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2009, 10:30:49 pm »

All of the OP suggested alternatives are modern.  Back pre-1400 war was pretty much it as far as diplomacy is concerned.  You couldn't even reliably sanction someone because of smuggling.  (today, of course, you can't rerliably sanction someone because of Russia)
- Peaceful protests of course happened, but they aren't documented very well.. because they were so common. Paper is cheap, as well as papyrus, wax tables and clay tablets.

- Trade sanctions: controlling trade always has been a tool of power. Who gets the tolls, the staple rights, the mill, etc. ? A step further towards war is blockading ports or trade routes.

- Sabotage was less common, because there was less infrastructure and destroying something required an army anyway due to the lack of explosives. Raiding and plundering, burning fields as a war of attrition instead of a confrontation was common practice, however.

- Propaganda: not as flexible as the modern version, but sponsoring religions/missionaries is an ancient practice. There still is pretty direct stuff, eg. the Mesopotamian kings that deified themselves, or the Egyptian Pharaohs that put up steles to commemorate their victories.

- Outright bribing was less common in times with less monetary means, but promising a count a promotion to duke if he switched allegiance from one king to another would have been considered.
1) No, they really were NOT that common. At least not on a level that was taken seriously. There is a very good reason for this. FEUDALISM! The Great Chain of Being, Castes. All that. People were programed to think they were born into a position and HAD to listen to those above them for the most part. Education was not common, what was there reinforced the Great Chain of Being. You know what getting excommunicated in pre-1400's Europe meant? It was a death sentence. The Great Chain of Being was a part of the Catholic doctrine, and thus to deny the great chain (aka: protesting your better's actions in any way shape or form) was heresy.

2)Actually only in DF, period wise it was still not a valid method because most places were built to be self sufficent. Do you know how HARD it was to maintain communications and other things after the fall of the roman empire? Once their roads broke down? Trade in europe almost came to a stand still until the Bergs began to form (proto-cities). I'm not saying it wasn't happening, but the general concensus was that either A) my vassals give me the stuff I need from taxes and may request a tiny bit from me if they need it, or B) I can go raid my next door neighbors at lance and sword point and FORCE them to give me what I want, or C) I can do without.

If we're talking a full blown siege or blockade? Again, not common until the age of sea except for land based sieges. And those are basically what we go through now. NO GIANT CATAPULTS! NO TREBUCHETS! Just a bunch of guys camped outside taking any supplies meant for the City/Castle/Keep until somebody starts waving the white flag.

3)Sabatog has, and always WILL be a valid method of attack for any period. Espionage and assassination are the 2nd oldest professions in the world. It might not be attacking infrastructure. But poisoning a well is almost always just as effective. Or setting a field of crops on fire at night.

4)Yeah. Missionaries were about it. And that only worked on Heathen lands, and didn't stop the Crusaders from coming in and still lopping off christian heads. Sorry, the crusades ended more christian than Muslim lives by the end of them (and that is NOT including the crusader casualty list, nor those who the Muslim's killed. That's taking the kill list of the Crusaders ALONE).

5)This is the only place you've got it right. Not much, except in terms of "Hey, you want a higher position in MY government? and a huge ass portion of the land I'm about to conquer?"

These are only pieces of the truth that weren't true by the year 1400. This understanding of the medieval ages, as I said before, is the result of learning about it from the media and public education, rather than by actual study of the history.

1) Feudalism, class systems, etc. only applied to relations between nobles and commoners. The various kings and emperors would have had to communicate by diplomat. The Capetians unified France by diplomacy as much as by warfare.

2) It is ridiculous to think that breakdown in communications remained that serious 1000 years after the fall of Rome. There was, for example, a popular historian from Belgium who theorized that the reason for the decline of Europe was because of the breakdown of Rome and the invasions by the Islamic world. His theories have since been rejected because the data shows that trade continued at similar levels throughout Europe despite the fall of Rome and the incursions by Islam into North Africa and Spain. Furthermore, even the bergs you speak of existed way before 1400. For example, the Hanseatic League, a powerful German trading alliance of cities, began in the mid 1200s.

4) Not just missionaries, but other types of evangelistic efforts were common during the time of Rome, when Christianity was proceeding from the top down. The only reason why one sees less of it in Medieval Europe was because of the relative homogeneity of communities and the relative freedom of doctrine that existed among the illiterate. That the Europeans later sent missionaries to the New World shows that it was a strategy they too endorsed, only they lacked a subject population to exercise it on - and there would have been missionaries sent to Islamic populations (I believe there were any way) if not for Islamic regulations banning Christian and Jewish evangelism.

5) Bribes can always take many different forms. No need to limit it to land or position - gold was certainly desired, valued, and available, as seen in Beowulf. And isn't marriage the common reward in fairy tales for the successful hero?

But in any case, with regard to Dwarf Fortress, if the elves bribe your nobles, perhaps you can expose them and have the hammerer execute them legitly. For sabotage, they might lay traps in trees to specifically target civilian woodcutters. As for religion, it gives your priests something else to do. Prevent your dwarves from straying from the Way...

NO ONE EXPECTS THE DWARVEN INQUISITION

(Semi-off topic)
Regarding international systems: The Holy Roman Empire was basically an international system and would have been able to sanction its member states. The constant state of warfare between the Italian city states meant that a de facto balance of power existed between them. Furthermore, the reason why no alternate system existed to the Catholic Church was that it fulfilled the needs required of such an international system. The only reason why Europe later developed laws of warfare (post-1400) via the Treaty of Westphalia is the war that resulted in the Treaty of Westphalia was caused by events that also discredited the Catholic Church (the Reformation).

Edit: I was somewhat in anger, because history is my passion.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2009, 02:37:40 pm by darkflagrance »
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