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[Mr.Person]

All in all, my opinions of him and Mr. Person are largely tied together (i.e. if one of them flips scum, I think the other is likely scum, too, or tower, if the other is tower), but I'm more suspicious of Mr. Person than Apol.

This is bad. Really, really bad.
When I flip tower, don't suspect Mr.Person less. I agree with his arguments and the way he's applying them.
As far as town/scum-wise, it doesn't tell me a lot. He's using a decent strategy which I agree with, but that doesn't make him more town.

I'm actually interested to know what he thinks of my alleged 'defense' of him. His most recent post was particularly cryptic.

Well, I do think you're being logical, you're understating how scummy Neruz's behavior is. The scum's only got one goal: Not getting lynched. The town only has one goal: Find and lynch scum. When somebody is more worried about survival than getting lynched, that's really anti-town and scummy behavior. As town, you should always, ALWAYS be trying to figure out who's scum. If you do anything else, that's scummy. Neruz backed off from the person he wanted to lynch. As a town player, that makes no sense. As scum, that was an attempt to divert suspiscion. He said that it's totally impossible to determine who's scum on the first say, which is total bullshit. As town, there's no reason to say that. As scum, he's be trying to put WIFOM in our heads (Did we really find scum day 1?).

Thus, I'm confused as to why so many people are voting me for thinking Neruz is scum. Do you guys think Neruz is scum? Even if he's not scum, he'd be a poor town player, and thus I'd be satisfied with lynching him either way.

[Beacon80]

That mentality has always bugged me.  For starters, even if you're focused entirely on finding scum and getting them lynched, you still don't want to get lynched yourself.  If nothing else, it's a waste of a lynch.
And that's not taking into account the existence of power roles.  It's in the town's best interests for the Justicar to keep himself alive long enough to find cabal members.

[Mr.Person]

That mentality has always bugged me.  For starters, even if you're focused entirely on finding scum and getting them lynched, you still don't want to get lynched yourself.  If nothing else, it's a waste of a lynch.
And that's not taking into account the existence of power roles.  It's in the town's best interests for the Justicar to keep himself alive long enough to find cabal members.

No, you've got the strange mentality. It doesn't matter if you look suspicious for it, you should always, ALWAYS question and vote people you think are scum. Why in the world would you pass up not finding scum unless you're scum yourself?

[Beacon80]

My point is that a townie has TWO goals:
1) Find and lynch scum
2) Divert attention away from themselves.  A townie who gets himself lynched harms the town.

[Mephansteras]

The Glowing Tally Board
Apostolic Nihilist: Frelock, Jim Groovester, Leafsnail, Mr.Person
ExKirby: Apostolic Nihilist, ExKirby, Frelock, Beacon80, Jim Groovester, Leafsnail, Neruz, Org, SHAD0Wdump
Mr.Person: Beacon80, Neruz, SHAD0Wdump
Neruz: Mr.Person
SHAD0Wdump: Apostolic Nihilist
Abstain: ExKirby


Wizards of the College and all Guests of the Tower, may I present to you our next two Duelists; ExKirby and Apostolic Nihilist!



Ok, set-up phase has started! It will go until ~5pm Pacific Friday or I have all Elements, side-actions, and Assists.

[Mr.Person]

My point is that a townie has TWO goals:
1) Find and lynch scum
2) Divert attention away from themselves.  A townie who gets himself lynched harms the town.

The first one if FAR more important than the second one.

[Apostolic Nihilist]

Alright; so now that I'm going to be lynched (I figured as much) I might as well roleclaim and the like.
So I'm actually the Tower Nullifier.

I nullified Frelock because he lead the charge against 'not assisting'. If he were secretly Cabal, it would've been easy to figure out. Of course, he didn't assist anyone or use any magic, so I figure he's probably town, or if he's Cabal he didn't perform the kill.

I think someone was doing some simulations where a normal Tower Mage vs. a Cabal Archmage loses >95% of the time? I don't recall the specifics. If that's true, then Tower vs. Tower Archmage can't have a much better chance of winning.

You could perform an easy test, something like having one or two assists on me. Or assist my speed, since that doesn't really effect anything; if I have several people assisting my speed and he's still faster, then he's likely Archmage. It shouldn't matter either way, if he's Tower he should probably die at the end from a NK.

I apologize for having ExKirby reveal his role; that was a sudden burst of stupidity on my part.

[Frelock]

Now, this time I think I have a better idea than not assisting.  Assisting each one equally with healing.  We then see if the attacks were successful or not, and get a more drawn-out battle, which provides more data.  Of course, at this point, since Kirby's claimed Archmage, and AN has claimed nullifier, which has no combat boost, we already know who's likely to win, just based on the roles.  Sadly, a difference of 2 is more insignificant when you get a boost of 5 already.  I'm really not sure what to do.

[Apostolic Nihilist]

Actually, I've been doing some thinking. Let's consider the scenarios:

A)
ExKirby is Cabal Archmage, I'm Tower.
He defeats me easily. I flip Tower, no one is surprised. We still don't know the status of ExKirby.
B)
ExKirby is Tower Archmage, I'm Tower.
He defeats me easily, I flip Tower, no one is surprised. We still don't know the status of ExKirby. Will likely be taken out by NK.
C)
ExKirby is Cabal, I'm Tower.
He defeats me, the fight is drawn out a bit longer than before. Some suprise. We don't know the status of ExKirby for sure.
D)
ExKirby is Tower, I'm Tower.
This is practically impossible, but he might be a battle mage, just maybe. Or a lucky time mage? Anyways, if this is so, he probably lied to purposely draw the attention of the Cabal and get them to take him out.

I'm not going to bother going over the situations where I'm Cabal as they're practically the same.

Now, it's a different story if everyone assists me.
Here's why:
If everyone assists me and I still lose, we don't find out anything extra, so nothing is gained or lost. If by some miraculous chance I do take him out, though, we'll get him to roleflip. We'll find out whether he's Cabal or Tower and furthermore, his role. Solid evidence, in other words. In this case, even if he is Tower Archmage, it doesn't really matter — he would've died by NK at the end of the round (Scum don't want a threat to linger).

Furthermore, you'll have me; you won't know whether I'm Tower or Cabal, but I only won due to the assists — I'm not nearly as much of a threat.

We can make the best of this situation, or we can just let it play out. There's an easy way to maximize our information gains, so why don't we go ahead with it?
It'd be interesting to see other's thoughts.

[Neruz]

By the way Beacon80, to answer your earlier question i have substantial experience with Mafia, but in a very limited player pool. The guys i'm used to playing Mafia with don't play anything like this; it's a much more tentative affair. We certainly never lynch people at random as doing so is statistically detrimental to town, and much of the game is spent dealing with alliances. Often entire nights will go by with no kills due to there being no target that would not cast suspicion on the wrong person.

Mr.Person's attitude coincides alot with how we used to play Mafia; with only the mafia sort of working as a team (and often not working as a team, due to signs of teamwork equalling mafia) and each town player basically acting on his own. We changed to a much more team based style of play for both town and mafia when i, mesk, DKS and KingDK managed to definitively win five mafia games in a row (despite one of us being mafia in two games, and two of us being mafia in one of the games) by applying teamwork to the town side. The increased risk of a mafia infiltrating the town side is only minor compared to the benefits of using teamwork.


So yeah; this style of play has me quite off-balance at the moment, the concept that lynching people at random is a good thing and that trying to prevent town from dying in vain is somehow scummy is somewhat incomprehensible to me.

[Mephansteras]

No Assists have been made at this time.


Duelists, please remember to PM me with the Element you will be attacking with.

[Leafsnail]

The plan was to assist Apost slightly, wasn't it?  With that in mind, assist apost in speed using fire.  If we give him a few speed boosts, it won't help his chances much, but may give us an insight into ExKirby's stats.

[Mr.Person]

By the way Beacon80, to answer your earlier question i have substantial experience with Mafia, but in a very limited player pool. The guys i'm used to playing Mafia with don't play anything like this; it's a much more tentative affair. We certainly never lynch people at random as doing so is statistically detrimental to town, and much of the game is spent dealing with alliances. Often entire nights will go by with no kills due to there being no target that would not cast suspicion on the wrong person.

Mr.Person's attitude coincides alot with how we used to play Mafia; with only the mafia sort of working as a team (and often not working as a team, due to signs of teamwork equalling mafia) and each town player basically acting on his own. We changed to a much more team based style of play for both town and mafia when i, mesk, DKS and KingDK managed to definitively win five mafia games in a row (despite one of us being mafia in two games, and two of us being mafia in one of the games) by applying teamwork to the town side. The increased risk of a mafia infiltrating the town side is only minor compared to the benefits of using teamwork.


So yeah; this style of play has me quite off-balance at the moment, the concept that lynching people at random is a good thing and that trying to prevent town from dying in vain is somehow scummy is somewhat incomprehensible to me.

Well, if I find somebody I think is town, I'll make sure you get the memo. In the meantime, I'm going to continue going after the people I think are scum.

[Jim Groovester]

The plan was to assist Apost slightly, wasn't it?  With that in mind, assist apost in speed using fire.  If we give him a few speed boosts, it won't help his chances much, but may give us an insight into ExKirby's stats.

Well, I don't think anybody agreed on a plan yet, but it seems like a good plan anyway.

I was going to propose we test the limits of ExKirby's abilities by assisting Apostolic Nihilist. Therefore, I think we should stack our assists to give Apostolic Nihilist a wide but not necessarily decisive range of stat increases in all areas, with the hope that he will have a longer fight with ExKirby, and we would therefore get more information.

And I just don't trust ExKirby after he abstained when the votes were tied on Apostolic Nihilist and Mr. Person.

If ExKirby is a Cabal Archmage, he'll survive the fight probably pretty handily even with Apostolic Nihilist's assists against him. If ExKirby is the Tower Archmage, he'll have a harder time, but will probably be incapacitated by the Cabal at the end of the duel. There is the alternate scenario that ExKirby is the Tower Archmage but is not incapacitated at the end of the fight, as a WIFOM for the rest of us wizards.

Either way, we should know more at the end of the fight, but I think we should try and focus on other people for the next duel. I feel like some people are getting a free pass with all this focus on ExKirby.

I will prepare to assist Apostolic Nihilist with Healing with the Water element. Note: I am not assisting yet, just throwing out where I stand for the sake of the discussion.

[SHAD0Wdump]

I suppose I should prepare to assist Nihilist's defense with air?