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[Neruz]

Quickened true-strike + 2 handed power attack + alter self/polymorph sounds vaguely familiar...

Can people use extra WotC books if they have them?

Pfft, that's all physical attacks. Most high end monsters can negate physical attacks entirely.


Also the crux of that combo would be the Polymorph, a spell which was ludicrously overpowered until it was errataed, and is now only borderline broken as opposed to completely broken (certain feats and class combos can re-break it however.)


As an example: Wail of the Banshee, 9th level spell, kills 1 creature per caster level in a fairly wide radius (so a level 20 Wizard will kill 20 creatures) with a Fortitude save to negate.

Didn't even need any fancy feats. Oh, and the Wizard can probably cast that 2 - 3 times per day, or more if he's all buffed up. With the right application of feats and spells he can cast that 3 times per round, or just hit everyone with so many penalties that it's impossible to make the save.

[RAM]

Must...Resist...Urge...To powergame...

[Neruz]

kinseti would need to define what he means by 'powergame' before you can resist the urge to do it

I know DM's who think that any character with stats that make sense is powergaming, and others who feel that nothing short of Pun-Pun is powergaming, and even he wouldn't be powergaming if the player can justify him.

[Rooster]

I'm sorry but I don't think my barbarian will be weak any time soon.

Craft and profession question from WAY there: Craft allows me to make delicious alcohol with a roll. Meaning I spend some gold and some time, and I get great alcohol wich I can drink myself or sell for even more than I have spent. Profession on the other hand is the ability to do a job. Which means I can hire myself as a brewer in a still and get a decent pay out. Untrainted people get 1silver a day. I can get much more than that by doing delicious alcohol. I can be a barman in a tavern. I know the drill and I will know on the spot when barman pissed into our beers. Noting powergamer would take, but a hilariously fun choice nonetheless

[Enzo]

While i agree that there's plenty of cannon fodder, dying isn't fun, it's even less fun when you die and have to sit in a waiting list to come back. Dying because the system is hard and you accidentally screwed up without even knowing what you did wrong is so not fun it occasionally creates a black hole of antifun.

Eh, I'm so horrendously out of practice this thing is going to be a crapshoot anyway. I said so to begin with and people still seem excited so I'm just rolling with it. And I'll be starting somewhere with nice newbie-friendly plot hooks.

kinseti would need to define what he means by 'powergame' before you can resist the urge to do it

Hey, it's hard to define. And I'm tired. But when you prioritize maximum combat output over making a fun character, it looks like powergaming to me. If everyone is super-powerful the DM will just throw out higher CRs, it doesn't improve the game. If everyone has an original, engaging character however, it will improve the game. That is just my outlook. Some people love min/maxing. I don't like to pass judgment. But I stepped up as DM so that sort of has to be my job 

Rooster knows what I'm talking about! Half-Orc alcoholics make the game way more fun than spending all those ranks in climb or some shit.

Can people use extra WotC books if they have them?

I am really trying to avoid adding supplements, as I'm not familiar with most of them. If I start letting stuff in the floodgate is down, and everybody is going to want their favourite unbalanced spell or esoteric prestige class. Or so my paranoid delusion goes.

Alright, I need sleep...

[Leafsnail]

Hey, if we're going to arbitrarily allow "Make jelly" (and I support this, jelly is delicious) can we allow other cool stuff?  I was hoping for a Dopp, heh.

And I'm not sure about the whole "Wands of Healing" stuff.  It does seem a bit like powergaming, and it reminds me of that time when I went to fight a huge boss in Runescape with only a huge bag of purple sweets to heal with (explanation: purple sweets were stackable and healed you slightly.  Powergaming taking to the max).  And I might still be useful for healing between encounters, I guess.

[Neruz]

I'm sorry but I don't think my barbarian will be weak any time soon.

Craft and profession question from WAY there: Craft allows me to make delicious alcohol with a roll. Meaning I spend some gold and some time, and I get great alcohol wich I can drink myself or sell for even more than I have spent. Profession on the other hand is the ability to do a job. Which means I can hire myself as a brewer in a still and get a decent pay out. Untrainted people get 1silver a day. I can get much more than that by doing delicious alcohol. I can be a barman in a tavern. I know the drill and I will know on the spot when barman pissed into our beers. Noting powergamer would take, but a hilariously fun choice nonetheless

Actually Craft and Profession are key powergamer skills, as they allow you to generate wealth for free and break the economy in half.

Hey, it's hard to define. And I'm tired. But when you prioritize maximum combat output over making a fun character, it looks like powergaming to me.

Here's the fun question; What if a character that is very good in combat is a fun character for the player in question?

Addendum to that by the way; It is possible to create a character that is both effective in combat and interesting to play outside of combat. I know this sounds like a bit of an alien concept to most old hats, but it's doable.

With the Half Orc barbarian for example; Barbarians get so few skill points they can freely blow them on whatever they like anyway, simply due to the fact that they can never be expected to use their skills for anything useful due to not having any to begin with.

I was hoping for a Dopp, heh.

You mean a Doppelganger as a race choice? You realise those come with an ECL of 8?


You'll find you're not very useful for healing between encounters either; you'll run out of spell slots long before your party members run out of wounds for you to heal. That's why scrolls and wands are in the game to begin with; once you're into the midgame you can't do jack with the tiny handful of spells per day you get naturally.

[Rooster]

I'm not going to destroy the economy. I'll brew booze just to get drunk before combat.

EDIT: I just realised something. You can't destroy the economy with craft skill. Firstly there's something like taxes. And of course you need a place to stay and I doubt the tavern is chep enough to get anything out of craft skill. And you have to eat and drink. More coins go away. Then you create an item for what? Half the price? Than sell it for no profit? I don't know with what DM you have played, but a few DM I know would always find answers to power gamers

[Neruz]

Any DM can find answers to people trying to break the system, that's a given, it's also why the majority of extreme optimisation remains theoretical (like Pun-Pun).

As written however, it is trivial for a PC to get a craft skill like Sculpting high enough to reliably create products that can be sold for more money than was required to pay for the raw materials, often substantially more. One of the theoretical optimisation threads showed how a high int level 4 Wizard could quite easily end up with well over ten million gold after less than a year of work by taking advantage of craft and profession skills.


Food and drink? Everlasting provisions, easy as pie. Place to live? Portable hole, live wherever you feel like. Taxes? Don't live in a kingdom, don't pay taxes (there aren't even rules for taxes anyway, so you're entering homebrew territory there, and once you enter homebrew territory all bets are off.)

[Leafsnail]

Argh, yet another acronym I have no idea of which trips me up.  I suppose you can't have a level -7 character .

[Neruz]

In a word, no.

ECL is Effective Character Level. Because the Devs don't want people playing monster races and they don't have the time or money to do all the numbers involving monster races, but would like to give people the illusion of being able to do so, they gave the playable monster races arbitrarily large level adjustments and useless levels in worthless 'classes' like Monsterous Humanoid, the end result being that most monster races are entirely unplayable either due to being far too specialised, far too broken or far too sucky. And the right combos of feats and classes can often turn a sucky monster race into a totally broken monster race (any at-will Shapeshifter + Warshaper is silly.)


If you want a Doppelgangeresque character though, Changelings from Eberron are ECL0. You don't get any nice stat boosts, but instead you get the Shapeshifter subtype (which allows you to pick the Transformation Cleric domain, a very good domain) and the ability to change your physical features (not clothes) to mimic other people, as well as a handful of useful skill boosts.

Not a hugely optimised race, but potentially good fun in a diplomatic game, and with some good racials.

[userpay]

Okay just a note I won't be avalible till sunday night and technacally won't beable to play more than an hour or so till about 12:00 on monday after classes so if it starts before I get back feel free to bump me to the waiting list.

[JoshuaFH]

I made some alterations to my character's equipment, so he isn't accidentally pimped out.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Jodhu the Diplomatic

Male Half-Elf Sorcerer 1
Lawful Neutral
Representing Joshua

Strength    13   (+1)
Dexterity    10   (+0)
Constitution    8   (-1)
Intelligence    17   (+3)
Wisdom    15   (+2)
Charisma    18   (+4)
   
Size:    Medium
Height:    5' 8"
Weight:    175 lb
Skin:    Tan
Eyes:    Black
Hair:    Light Brown; Wavy; Light Beard

Total Hit Points: 3

Speed: 30 feet

Armor Class: 10

      Touch AC: 10
      Flat-footed: 10

Initiative modifier:   +0   = +0 [dexterity]
Fortitude save:   -1   = 0 [base] -1 [constitution]
Reflex save:   +0   = 0 [base]
Will save:   +4   = 2 [base] +2 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld):   -1   = 0 [base] +1 [strength] -2 [noncombatant]
Attack (unarmed):   -1   = 0 [base] +1 [strength] -2 [noncombatant]
Attack (missile):   +0   = 0 [base]
Grapple check:   -4   = 0 [base] +1 [strength] -4 [noncombatant] -1 [slippery]

Light load:
Medium load:
Heavy load:
Lift over head:
Lift off ground:
Push or drag:
   50 lb. or less
51-100 lb.
101-150 lb.
150 lb.
300 lb.
750 lb.

Languages:   Common Dwarven Elven Giant Gnome Halfling

Sling [1d4, crit x2, range inc. 50 ft., 0 lb, bludgeoning]

Bat familiar

Feats:

      Deceitful   
      Negotiator   
      Persuasive   
      Murky-Eyed   [flaw]
      Noncombatant   [flaw]

Traits:

      Polite
      Slippery

Skill Name
   
Key
Ability
   
Skill
Modifier
   
Ability
Modifier
   
Ranks
   
Misc.
Modifier
Appraise    Int    3 =   
+3
     
Balance    Dex*    0 =   
+0
     
Bluff    Cha    10 =   
+4
   +4    +2 [persuasive]
Climb    Str*    1 =   
+1
     
Concentration    Con    -1 =   
-1
     
Craft_1    Int    3 =   
+3
     
Craft_2    Int    3 =   
+3
     
Craft_3    Int    3 =   
+3
     
Diplomacy    Cha    11 =   
+4
   +2    +2 [half-elf] +2 [negotiator] +1 [polite]
Disguise    Cha    6 =   
+4
      +2 [deceitful]
Escape Artist    Dex*    0 =   
+0
     
Forgery    Int    6 =   
+3
   +1    +2 [deceitful]
Gather Information    Cha    6 =   
+4
      +2 [half-elf]
Heal    Wis    2 =   
+2
     
Hide    Dex*    0 =   
+0
     
Intimidate    Cha    4 =   
+4
      +2 [persuasive] -2 [polite]
Jump    Str*    2 =   
+1
   +1   
Listen    Wis    6 =   
+2
      +1 [half-elf]
Move Silently    Dex*    0 =   
+0
     
Perform_1    Cha    4 =   
+4
     
Perform_2    Cha    4 =   
+4
     
Perform_3    Cha    4 =   
+4
     
Perform_4    Cha    4 =   
+4
     
Perform_5    Cha    4 =   
+4
     
Ride    Dex    0 =   
+0
     
Search    Int    4 =   
+3
      +1 [half-elf]
Sense Motive    Wis    5 =   
+2
   +1    +2 [negotiator]
Spot    Wis    3 =   
+2
      +1 [half-elf]
Survival    Wis    2 =   
+2
     
Swim    Str**    2 =   
+1
   +1   
Tumble    Dex*    1 =   
+0
   +1   
Use Rope    Dex    0 =   
+0
     

* = check penalty for wearing armor

This character also has 1 ranks in Speak Languages.
If the familiar is within reach, +2 on spot and listen ("alertness").
Slippery trait: +1 on escape artist checks against being grappled, -1 all other grapple checks.

Zero-level Sorcerer spells: 5 per day

First-level Sorcerer spells: 4 (3+1) per day

Half-Elf:

    * Immune to magical sleep

    * +2 racial bonus on saves vs. enchantments

    * Low-light vision (darkvision if half-drow)

    * +1 racial bonus on listen, search, and spot checks

    * +2 racial bonus on diplomacy and gather information checks

Sorcerer:

    * Familiar / Alertness, etc.

    * Can know only limited numbers of spells

    * High charisma gains bonus spells daily

   Class    HP rolled   
Level 1:    Sorcerer    4   

   
Jodhu's Equipment:

0 lb
2 lb
5 lb
3 lb

2 lb


5 lb
2 lb


1 lb
3 lb

1 lb

5 lb
1 lb
4 lb
3 lb
_____
37 lb   Weapons / Armor / Shield (from above)
Backpack
Bedroll
Blanket, winter x1
Bottle
Caltrops
Candle
Chalk
Crowbar
Hammer
Ink vial
Ink pen
Lamp (common)
Oil flasks x3
Parchment sheets x5
Sealing wax
Signal whistle
Torches x5
Vial (for ink or potions) x2
Waterskins x1
Spell component pouch

      Total

Bat familiar: Str 1 Dex 15 Con 10 Int 6 Wis 14 Chr 4; Hit points: 1; Initiative +2 (dex); Speed 5 ft., fly 40 ft. (good); AC: 17 (+4 size, +2 dex, +1 level); Blindsight; Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +4, Listen +9, Move Silently +6, Spot +9 Alertness feat when in arm's reach; improved evasion; share spells; empathic link;

More about Jodhu:

      A Half-Elf Sorcerer that thoroughly believes in the concept that the pen is mightier than the sword. Not a dwarf, a Half-Elf.

If I'm under the allowed, just say I gave the rest to charity or something.

[userpay]

I made some alterations to my character's equipment, so he isn't accidentally pimped out.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Jodhu the Diplomatic

Male Half-Elf Sorcerer 1
Lawful Neutral
Representing Joshua

Strength    13   (+1)
Dexterity    10   (+0)
Constitution    8   (-1)
Intelligence    17   (+3)
Wisdom    15   (+2)
Charisma    18   (+4)
   
Size:    Medium
Height:    5' 8"
Weight:    175 lb
Skin:    Tan
Eyes:    Black
Hair:    Light Brown; Wavy; Light Beard

Total Hit Points: 3

Speed: 30 feet

Armor Class: 10

      Touch AC: 10
      Flat-footed: 10

Initiative modifier:   +0   = +0 [dexterity]
Fortitude save:   -1   = 0 [base] -1 [constitution]
Reflex save:   +0   = 0 [base]
Will save:   +4   = 2 [base] +2 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld):   -1   = 0 [base] +1 [strength] -2 [noncombatant]
Attack (unarmed):   -1   = 0 [base] +1 [strength] -2 [noncombatant]
Attack (missile):   +0   = 0 [base]
Grapple check:   -4   = 0 [base] +1 [strength] -4 [noncombatant] -1 [slippery]

Light load:
Medium load:
Heavy load:
Lift over head:
Lift off ground:
Push or drag:
   50 lb. or less
51-100 lb.
101-150 lb.
150 lb.
300 lb.
750 lb.

Languages:   Common Dwarven Elven Giant Gnome Halfling

Sling [1d4, crit x2, range inc. 50 ft., 0 lb, bludgeoning]

Bat familiar

Feats:

      Deceitful   
      Negotiator   
      Persuasive   
      Murky-Eyed   [flaw]
      Noncombatant   [flaw]

Traits:

      Polite
      Slippery

Skill Name
   
Key
Ability
   
Skill
Modifier
   
Ability
Modifier
   
Ranks
   
Misc.
Modifier
Appraise    Int    3 =   
+3
     
Balance    Dex*    0 =   
+0
     
Bluff    Cha    10 =   
+4
   +4    +2 [persuasive]
Climb    Str*    1 =   
+1
     
Concentration    Con    -1 =   
-1
     
Craft_1    Int    3 =   
+3
     
Craft_2    Int    3 =   
+3
     
Craft_3    Int    3 =   
+3
     
Diplomacy    Cha    11 =   
+4
   +2    +2 [half-elf] +2 [negotiator] +1 [polite]
Disguise    Cha    6 =   
+4
      +2 [deceitful]
Escape Artist    Dex*    0 =   
+0
     
Forgery    Int    6 =   
+3
   +1    +2 [deceitful]
Gather Information    Cha    6 =   
+4
      +2 [half-elf]
Heal    Wis    2 =   
+2
     
Hide    Dex*    0 =   
+0
     
Intimidate    Cha    4 =   
+4
      +2 [persuasive] -2 [polite]
Jump    Str*    2 =   
+1
   +1   
Listen    Wis    6 =   
+2
      +1 [half-elf]
Move Silently    Dex*    0 =   
+0
     
Perform_1    Cha    4 =   
+4
     
Perform_2    Cha    4 =   
+4
     
Perform_3    Cha    4 =   
+4
     
Perform_4    Cha    4 =   
+4
     
Perform_5    Cha    4 =   
+4
     
Ride    Dex    0 =   
+0
     
Search    Int    4 =   
+3
      +1 [half-elf]
Sense Motive    Wis    5 =   
+2
   +1    +2 [negotiator]
Spot    Wis    3 =   
+2
      +1 [half-elf]
Survival    Wis    2 =   
+2
     
Swim    Str**    2 =   
+1
   +1   
Tumble    Dex*    1 =   
+0
   +1   
Use Rope    Dex    0 =   
+0
     

* = check penalty for wearing armor

This character also has 1 ranks in Speak Languages.
If the familiar is within reach, +2 on spot and listen ("alertness").
Slippery trait: +1 on escape artist checks against being grappled, -1 all other grapple checks.

Zero-level Sorcerer spells: 5 per day

First-level Sorcerer spells: 4 (3+1) per day

Half-Elf:

    * Immune to magical sleep

    * +2 racial bonus on saves vs. enchantments

    * Low-light vision (darkvision if half-drow)

    * +1 racial bonus on listen, search, and spot checks

    * +2 racial bonus on diplomacy and gather information checks

Sorcerer:

    * Familiar / Alertness, etc.

    * Can know only limited numbers of spells

    * High charisma gains bonus spells daily

   Class    HP rolled   
Level 1:    Sorcerer    4   

   
Jodhu's Equipment:

0 lb
2 lb
5 lb
3 lb

2 lb


5 lb
2 lb


1 lb
3 lb

1 lb

5 lb
1 lb
4 lb
3 lb
_____
37 lb   Weapons / Armor / Shield (from above)
Backpack
Bedroll
Blanket, winter x1
Bottle
Caltrops
Candle
Chalk
Crowbar
Hammer
Ink vial
Ink pen
Lamp (common)
Oil flasks x3
Parchment sheets x5
Sealing wax
Signal whistle
Torches x5
Vial (for ink or potions) x2
Waterskins x1
Spell component pouch

      Total

Bat familiar: Str 1 Dex 15 Con 10 Int 6 Wis 14 Chr 4; Hit points: 1; Initiative +2 (dex); Speed 5 ft., fly 40 ft. (good); AC: 17 (+4 size, +2 dex, +1 level); Blindsight; Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +4, Listen +9, Move Silently +6, Spot +9 Alertness feat when in arm's reach; improved evasion; share spells; empathic link;

More about Jodhu:

      A Half-Elf Sorcerer that thoroughly believes in the concept that the pen is mightier than the sword. Not a dwarf, a Half-Elf.

If I'm under the allowed, just say I gave the rest to charity or something.

Oi were gonna need whatevers left over, thats why I still have a few gold left.

[JoshuaFH]

Oh ok.

I'll try to read up some more I guess.