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Author Topic: Dwarven Science: Infinite Capacity Quivers!  (Read 7724 times)

Frogwarrior

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Dwarven Science: Infinite Capacity Quivers!
« on: October 01, 2009, 10:32:06 pm »

So, in my current fortress, nearing the completion of its 8th year, I have discovered that I can make my marksdwarves carry extra ammo. I have them standing down almost full-time, to train up, with a bone carver to keep them well stocked. The champions, I put on duty when their quivers are full to guard my fortress.

A while ago, I learned that if I put someone on-duty while he's carrying bolts to the archery range, he will put them in his quiver instead, causing a "Urist McMarksdwarf cancels Store Item in Stockpile: Job item misplaced" message. I've use this to make sure all my marksdwarves have at least 40 bolts in quiver at all times, as they will not use bolts in their quiver to practice. In fact, one of my dwarves has three separate stacks of bolts, 45, 30, and 16, for a whopping 91 bolts in his quiver.

I decided to start a fortress whose main defence is a single marksdwarf with nigh-infinite bolts in his quiver. However, I suddenly can't get the store-extra trick to work anymore! Instead, when he's put On Duty, he drops the bolts he's hauling.

I have:
- A Proficient marksdwarf, with a crossbow.
- A stack of 17 bone bolts in quiver.
- An archery target.
- A nearby ammo stockpile, with several stakc of practice ammo.

Whereas, in the other fortress, I have
- Several marksdwarves all off-duty at once, with varying skill levels (but all have been able to use the trick)
- Most of them have 40+ bolts in quiver
- 4 or 5 archery targets
- A couple ammo stockpiles/bins near the targets, and a workshop holding several more a fairly large distance away.

I just can't figure out, yet, what the difference is that makes it work in the one case, but not in the other. Any ideas? SOLVED, see reply #9 below for a full explanation and PICTURES of a quiver with 450 bolts.

Also, it works AWESOMELY when the bolts are stored in bins.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2010, 04:47:12 pm by Frogwarrior »
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Christes

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Re: Help me store infinite ammo in a single quiver!
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2009, 10:35:29 pm »

Time for science?

Seriously, someone needs to try to reproduce this.
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Zantan

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Re: Help me store infinite ammo in a single quiver!
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2009, 10:43:27 pm »

While infinite ammo would certainly be nice, there is one problem with this: when a marksdwarf goes off to target practice, they typically bring bone or wooden bolts.  If your idea is to store an infinite number of training bolts in a single quiver, wouldn't you be sacrificing substantial quality?
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Kanddak

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Re: Help me store infinite ammo in a single quiver!
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2009, 10:55:00 pm »

Oh, yeah. That goblin is going to get hit by ten bolts, each of which zig-zags through his heart, both lungs, both kidneys, liver, stomach, and spleen... but he's going to live because they were wooden bolts instead of steel ones.

I don't think you're going to lose a lot by using lower-quality bolts.
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Frogwarrior

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Re: Help me store infinite ammo in a single quiver!
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2009, 11:00:15 pm »

But quantity has a quality all its own!

Seriously, though. Which would you rather have. 25 Steel bolts, or several hundred bone bolts? Even if it takes a couple more to bring a guy down, in my experience the thing that keeps marksdwarves from being even more insanely deadly is the simple fact that they run out of ammo in a few seconds. With this? One man could theoretically take out sieges, if you could keep him out of melee. (Orbital bombardment platform, with a couple melee mooks to draw enemy ranged fire?)
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And been a bit smug over generating a world with an elephant monster that got 87763 sentient kills.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104354.0

Frogwarrior

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Re: Help me store infinite ammo in a single quiver!
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2009, 11:30:11 pm »

I just tried it in the second fort by giving my marksdwarf a backpack - no luck.
Man, this is hard to figure out. Maybe... I have another idea...

ETA: Nope. Making sure there were no preexisting jobs to store ammo in that stockpile didn't work. Man, I'm really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

ETA: HOLY ---- I reproduced it.
It appears screwing aruond with the stockpile is the key.
Let me do some experimentation. And reiterate: Holy ---- this is awesome.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 11:39:39 pm by Frogwarrior »
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And been a bit smug over generating a world with an elephant monster that got 87763 sentient kills.
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Christes

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Re: Help me store infinite ammo in a single quiver!
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2009, 11:35:52 pm »

Do you use mods?  If not, uploading the fortresses could be helpful.
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Frogwarrior

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Re: Help me store infinite ammo in a single quiver!
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2009, 11:40:08 pm »

I do not use mods. What should I upload to?

Also, I think I figured it out.
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Lately, I'm proud of MAGMA LANDMINES:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91789.0
And been a bit smug over generating a world with an elephant monster that got 87763 sentient kills.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104354.0

Christes

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Re: Help me store infinite ammo in a single quiver!
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2009, 11:44:54 pm »

Do tell.
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Frogwarrior

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Re: Help me store infinite ammo in a single quiver!
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2009, 12:39:41 am »

Alright. Here's photographic evidence.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That's a total of 450 bolts in a single quiver.

Here's how it works: In order for the marksdwarf to store the bolts in his quiver upon being marked on duty (this works even if you put him back to off duty immediately, as the act of putting him on duty cancels the practice job), a couple things must be true:
1: There must be a valid stockpile that will accept the bolts he's carrying.
2: Said stockpile must not be full, counting a square as full if a stack has already been tasked to be moved to it.
3: Strangely, if the bolts were taken from a valid bolt stockpile this stockpile must not still be valid and non-full by the time the practice job is canceled.

Testing procedure:
- I had several stacks of bone and wood bolts, one of which was on a one-tile stockpile.
- Marksman was set to off-duty.
- As soon as I saw him pick up a stack, I paused the game.
- - While paused, I designated an ammo stockpile larger than the number of dwarves I currently had item hauling enabled for.
- - - (If you have one dwarf, a 1x1 will suffice. I tried 1x1 with no item haulers, 1x4 and larger with 3 item haulers, and both worked. 1x3 with 3 item haulers did NOT. I conclude that items are tasked to the stockpile before the marksdwarf has a chance to decide to stow the bolts or not, and since the stockpile is then full, point 2 fails and he drops them.)
- - From the military menu, selected his squad and put him on duty, than off again.
- Unpaused, and he put the bolts in his quiver.
- When he picked up the stack that was already in a stockpile, I tried two things to test point 3:
- - I did NOT designate a new stockpile, but merely put him on and off duty. He dropped the bolts instead of stowing them.
- - After pausing, I deleted the stockpile the bolts came from and designated a new one as above. He happily stored the bolts.

Incidentally, there's another way to get it to work, and it's how I did originally it in Ceilingmansion: Have SO MANY FINISHED GOODS (as in, I put stone crafts on repeat for years on end) and stray goblin clothing lying around that, through sheer force of numbers, there's no WAY the few stacks of practice bolts are going to be chosen to be moved to stockpiles instead of the couple thousand obsidian mugs. Thus point 3, the sticky one, automatically succeeds.

Well, I'm excited, I dunno about you.

ETA: Thanks to bhamv and Quatch for calling this to my attention and testing it, respectively.
You can get a marksman to store bolts without setting him on anf off duty by simply making the archery target impossible to use, either because the room is set so the firing direction is wrong (e.g. put it against a wall and tell him to shoot from the wall's direction) or, my favorite, make the room too small. However, the 3 points regarding stockpiles above still have to be true. Basically, if you have no item haulers or way, way too many non-bolt items for them to haul, this will save you micromanagement time. However, if this is NOT the case and bolts are being hauled to stockpiles before your marksdwarf gets his hands on them, you will STILL have to micromanage just as much, that and it's a little harder because you have a smaller window of time to interfere; if he gets to the bolts before you have time to realize he's trying to practice and screw with the stockpiles, he'll immediately drop them, instead of giving the extra time it takes for him to get to the archery target. However, there's zero chance that you'll miss it and he'll waste the bolts, so your call.

Thanks also to Khanddak for making me test having multiple ammo stockpiles. Turns out, if the stockpile the bolts were taken from is still valid when the practice job is cancelled, he'll drop the bolts, even if there's another valid stockpile that's closer.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 01:48:54 pm by Frogwarrior »
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And been a bit smug over generating a world with an elephant monster that got 87763 sentient kills.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104354.0

Puzzlemaker

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Re: Help me store infinite ammo in a single quiver!
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2009, 12:43:35 am »

Awesome.

That is truly awesome.

You need to have him take on sieges.
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Frogwarrior

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Re: Help me store infinite ammo in a single quiver!
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2009, 12:57:52 am »

If a mod could change the thread title to "Dwarven Science: Infinite Capacity Quivers," I'd be obliged. DISREGARD THAT, I am a forum n00b
« Last Edit: October 02, 2009, 01:37:49 am by Frogwarrior »
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Lately, I'm proud of MAGMA LANDMINES:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91789.0
And been a bit smug over generating a world with an elephant monster that got 87763 sentient kills.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104354.0

Vester

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Re: Help me store infinite ammo in a single quiver!
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2009, 01:34:33 am »

You could just modify the title of the first post.
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Frogwarrior

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Re: Help me store infinite ammo in a single quiver!
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2009, 01:37:04 am »

D'oh! I am too used to forums where you can't do that.  :-\
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Lately, I'm proud of MAGMA LANDMINES:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91789.0
And been a bit smug over generating a world with an elephant monster that got 87763 sentient kills.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104354.0

ikkonoishi

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Re: Dwarven Science: Infinite Capacity Quivers!
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2009, 01:52:10 am »

Why not just lock him in a room. If the dwarves can't path to the item they won't start a task on it.
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