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Author Topic: The future  (Read 3911 times)

Argonnek

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Re: The future
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2009, 12:16:02 am »

I personally think that giving DF graphics beyong ASCII or a tileset would be a really bad Idea.
 Consider this: on a glacier fort I had once, one of my starting kittens died of cold, but for some reason every single part of the kitten was on the floor, along with its corpse. I had a red pile consisting of kitten head, kitten left front leg, kitten pancreas, kitten guts, kitten mouth... you get the point. I'd rather not see that with Oblivion-level graphics.

shadowclasper

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Re: The future
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2009, 01:35:52 am »

I'm currently going to University of Southern California and majoring in interactive media. What Toady is doing is freaking amazing, Even if he sent in JUST THIS as he resume he'd probably land himself a place in the game company of his choice. Once he's completed it, this thing could be famous on a Sid Meiers level. Especially if he can get some seriously steady backing making it.
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darkflagrance

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Re: The future
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2009, 06:31:30 am »

Ironic then, that this one project already exceeds in quality 90% of what those same game companies are capable of producing?
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Neonivek

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Re: The future
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2009, 06:52:27 am »

Ironic then, that this one project already exceeds in quality 90% of what those same game companies are capable of producing?

It is amazing what you can accomplish then you have one dedicated programmer willing to work for near minimum wage with no guarentee of a pay check for an undisclosed period of time.
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kilakan

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Re: The future
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2009, 03:13:47 pm »

Ironic then, that this one project already exceeds in quality 90% of what those same game companies are capable of producing?

It is amazing what you can accomplish then you have one dedicated programmer willing to work for near minimum wage with no guarentee of a pay check for an undisclosed period of time.
Translation: One nerd in a basement with a really long "special" mood, and a huge cult-like of followers who are willing to send him tribute can get a hell of a lot done.
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shadowclasper

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Re: The future
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2009, 05:20:44 pm »

Ironic then, that this one project already exceeds in quality 90% of what those same game companies are capable of producing?

Not really. You want to know why? Profit margins. Most game companies force people to produce things like "Action Shooter II: Totally not like all the other Action Shooters out there" Because it's a safe bet they'll sell well. It's also the reason MMO's are so trendy now.

They want something SAFE to bet on, they don't consider a cult like following of what? How many people must play DF? a few thousand? to be a safe bet. No matter how much potential it is. Why do you think it took so long for something besides the Sims to be made by Will Right? Despite him having proven himself to be capable of turning out awesome games? Because the producers and funders for the project wanted more SIMS games, they sell well!

This is the fundemental block between Designers and most Producers. There are some AWESOME producers out there, like Dallas Snells (http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,131/) who helped me out when I interned at a game designer camp. But for the most part, producers are the guys from the funding company, not the developer company. That's why big names like EA and Microsoft are cited more than say, Game Forge, or similar, Oh, there are SOME game development companies that have enough success under their belt that they can demand prominence (among them Bungie and Bioware), and others that are both producers AND developers (Blizzard), but by and large the producers take the credit for a game, and basically demand certain things to be put in. You notice how almost every single damn rpg has atleast -1- mine cart level? Producers. If there's something completely random that doesn't seem to fit exactly, it's usually the producer's fault for demanding it be put in. They also take the majority of the cash. Developers aren't paid royalties most of the time, they're paid by the mile stone. They're given a time limit to make stuff, "Okay, when we come back we want you to have A, B, and C, then we'll give you $X". All that goes to funding the game project as a WHOLE, paying people, resources, the whole thing.

So right now, maybe it's a GOOD thing Toady isn't looking for huge backing, because they'd quite likely warp the game into something we'd hate, to make it sell better. Better for him to have a completed project that they won't try to warp and taint first.

Now, it's not all bad. The Screen Writer's Guild, according to my cousin who's a member here in LA, is fighting for recognition rights for developers and game writers. So that they get a slice of the cake. It's going to be a horrible battle, and you can bet the production companies will try to break the developers more than once (Hell, the TV companies tried it on the Screen writers last time there was a writer's strike, and the time before that. They've yet to win, but they've come VERY close).

It's this weird mentality the producers get that because THEY'RE putting money into the game, no actual work, that it's THEY'RE game. They don't seem to under stand the concept of "Hey, if we wanted, we could do this WITHOUT YOU. It would take HELLISHLY longer to get the same quality, but you can't do this without us, we can do this without YOU though."

THe only people really exempt from this are guys who are both producers AND developers (like Blizz, and it's a rare thing when they remain artists over business men), or where they're successful enough to demand what they want or walk out on the company, such as Bungie, Bioware, and a few others. The final kind are the designers who's very NAMES make stuff gaming gold. This is the rarest kind and -every- designer aspires to those heights. We're talking people like Tim Schaffer, Will Wright, and the most holy Sid Meiers. I think toady could get to this level -easy- but I'd prefer that he wait until he's got this polished and finished, simply because I'd LOATH to see his brain child torn apart and remodeled for better sales by some corporate bastards.
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darkflagrance

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Re: The future
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2009, 05:53:09 pm »

Actually, what I referred to was the statement that this project would be all that Toady needed as corporate credentials.

The goal of this project is to produce a game that, more than any game out there, fulfills the particular criteria of the designer (and his fans) for excellence. It is, if finished, the work of a lifetime.

For Toady to join a corporation would be like giving up one's life dream, and the chance of achieving a unique kind of excellence, in order to earn money by every day surrendering your creativity so that others can make a profit off neutered art. This lifestyle and value set is antithetical to the motivation that started the project in the first place.

Can you imagine Leonardo using the Mona Lisa as his entrance ticket into a company that designs advertising? That is something like the irony I perceived.

I admit though, it is possible that I misread. Maybe I'm just projecting my...ideals?

Also, when I wrote 90%, my gut instinct was to write 99% but I didn't think it would be fair for obvious reasons, among them the serious issues with the interface and graphics.
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Untelligent

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Re: The future
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2009, 09:15:06 pm »

I don't mind the interface or the graphics, especially the former. People keep bashing it, but in my opinion, it's efficient and doesn't have any needless frills. Much better than having to click on everything to get something done (aside from designations and similar things).

As for the graphics, just because they're not state-of-the-art and drawn from a blu-ray disc doesn't mean they have "serious issues." I don't consider graphics bad unless they're ugly enough to distract from the game. In fact, I sometimes find it difficult to tell what's going on in screenshots with graphics packs because everything's so messy. (And no, I don't not mind the graphics because I'm "used to Roguelikes and other games with ASCII graphics"; DF was actually the first game I played with graphics like this.)


DF is at least 100% the quality of many popular commercial games, if not more. Not once have I had it crash. Back when I played Team Fortress 2 a lot, it crashed once or twice EVERY DAY.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2009, 09:19:34 pm by Untelligent »
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tombthedwarf

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Re: The future
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2009, 08:41:30 pm »

*Also !!RAGE!! I WANT THE NEXT VERSION !!RAGE!!

nice flaming rage, maybe you should upgrade to !!*<<*RAGE*>>*!!

but seriously I find the current (almost non-graphical) version a better idea than a fully lifelike randomized world world, because you just can't do it without a program/machine that can logically create high definition renderings on the fly(so I guess we should welcome are robot overlords, kill them, scoop out their brains, and use them for dwarf fortress) and such renderings your experience wold still be limited by by the programs high def explanations for what happened (rather that you honed schizophrenic hallucinations).
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Rozenbuddy

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Re: The future
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2009, 08:45:37 pm »

personaly it has crashed for me once... it was tragic.....  :(
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Mike Mayday

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Re: The future
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2009, 03:42:57 am »

Just imagine...
Dwarf Fortress with Oblivion level graphics...

Good Lord, no!
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ArkDelgato

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Re: The future
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2009, 05:59:31 am »

So a mossy rock, a fake mossy rock, and a playdough mossy rock?
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IndonesiaWarMinister

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Re: The future
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2009, 06:14:48 am »

Just imagine...
Dwarf Fortress with Oblivion level graphics...

Good Lord, no!


Change the sword into a mining pick and you're set.
Also, change the face-icon into a smiley, beardy URIST McOLD face.

And... CARP.
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JonathanCR

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Re: The future
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2009, 07:05:29 am »

You can get Oblivion to look much better than that with a few graphics mods. In particular, the ugly tiling artifacts on the distant terrain can be cleared up and made to look much nicer.

That's beside the point though. I'd like to point out that when it comes to graphics, it's not like the only options are ASCII or full-blown 3D shaded stuff with bloom, shadow mapping, and state-of-the-art  fluid rendering. It is possible to have a game with old-fashioned tile graphics that are smart and easy to comprehend, pretty enough to draw in the uncommitted but not detailed enough to overwhelm the senses or remove the need for imagination. Look at Civilization III, for example, a game which lots of people still play and which uses pre-rendered 2D graphics to simulate a 3D effect. In fact in the case of Dwarf Fortress even that would probably be over-elaborate; I see nothing wrong with a nicely drawn tile set, perhaps along the lines of the one used by Rogue Touch (for the iPhone/iPod Touch). The way everyone seems to assume that the graphics choice is a straight dichotomy between either ASCII or Oblivion-style is obviously going to distort it.
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Vester

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Re: The future
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2009, 07:09:25 am »

Have you seen the Stonesense visualiser in the modding (I think) section? P'raps that might be the sort of thing you're looking for in terms of look.
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