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Author Topic: ARE YOU TRULY LIBERAL?  (Read 10755 times)

Granite26

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Re: ARE YOU TRULY LIBERAL?
« Reply #90 on: October 14, 2009, 04:25:32 pm »


We aren't talking about China or India here, we are talking about economic liberalism. China for instance is a nation that learns from its mistakes and history, and is influenced by communism, socialism and confucianism. Thusly China invests heavily in clean energy, unlike other "developed" nations like the US, which do NOT learn from their mistakes.

1. Name them and their celebrated work within economics. How have they benefitted society?

2. Frankly, right now, we're the problem, not China or India. China and India know very well that if they pollute too much, they're screwed. Not that we are setting a good example (the US in particular, using 8 times as many resources as the world can viable maintain if every nation did it).

"We" in this scenario refers to developed, wealthy nations.


Your quote-fu is crap.
1:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


2.  Ok, India(5% per capita increase annually) is doing pretty good,  I'll give you that.  OTOH, US emmissions have peaked and are at a 14 year low(per capita).  China is seeing 10% per capita growth, and total emissions have passed the US by 8% (China = 1.08 * US).  If the first world wants to clean up it's act, it'll have to force China to change it's policy (and kill the economic growth that is pulling it into the first world) or else see the rest of our manufacturing jobs go to places of cheap labor and eco-unfriendly policies.

Kholint

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Re: ARE YOU TRULY LIBERAL?
« Reply #91 on: October 14, 2009, 09:59:05 pm »

> China is seeing 10% per capita growth, and total emissions have passed the US by 8% (China = 1.08 * US).  If the first world wants to clean up it's act, it'll have to force China to change it's policy (and kill the economic growth that is pulling it into the first world) or else see the rest of our manufacturing jobs go to places of cheap labor and eco-unfriendly policies.

China has over 4 times the US's population, so they're still pretty green compared to you guys. The US's action towards stopping or reducing climate change is more important than China's right now. Maybe in 20, 30 or 40 years China will be more important than the US, but you guys are still in the driving seat right now - it's your mess, clean it up. No shirking! :P

Incidentally:


"Rezan said:
"We" in this scenario refers to developed, wealthy nations. " <=== agree 100%
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 10:12:37 pm by Kholint »
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rickvoid

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Re: ARE YOU TRULY LIBERAL?
« Reply #92 on: October 17, 2009, 04:40:50 pm »



Which is pretty much where I figured I'd be. My view on only getting .05 on the Authoritarian/Libertarian scale is that I felt those questions were mainly bullshit, and Government had little to no business making a ruling on them anyway. Just my two cent, 'o course.

Last thing, they at least didn't put Hitler to the far right on the economic scale, but it doesn't make any sense for him to be on that side at all. Under his "leadership", the government took over many industries and they were heavily regulated and taxed. That's not a right-leaning economic position, that's far left thinking. I direct your attention to our current American President, and Government (formerly known as General) Motors.

That is all.
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EuchreJack

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Re: ARE YOU TRULY LIBERAL?
« Reply #93 on: October 17, 2009, 06:00:30 pm »

Nice try, but the industry under Hitler was the least regulated of all the wartime powers.  And that's greatly contributed to the defeat of Nazi Germany.

cowofdoom78963

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Re: ARE YOU TRULY LIBERAL?
« Reply #94 on: October 17, 2009, 06:10:23 pm »

Not only that, but hitler hated communists with a passion.
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municipalis

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Re: ARE YOU TRULY LIBERAL?
« Reply #95 on: February 22, 2010, 04:26:38 am »

I'm going to play a bit of forum necromancy here, forgive me, but my inner-historian and inner-political scientist had to respond.

Quote
Not only that, but hitler hated communists with a passion.

This is completely false. Hitler hated people who didn't agree with him, as psychopaths are wont to do, and that's about it. Most people forget that in 1939, Poland was invaded from two fronts. Prior to the beginning of the war, the Soviets and Nazis had formalized the Molotov-Ribbentrop pack which spelled out each others "zones of influence" (the countries they were to eventually occupy), as well as trade relations and even fairly extensive cooperation between the Gestapo and NKVD. In fact, the Germans learned a lot about how to run concentration camps from the Soviets.

Some wiki links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-German_cooperation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestapo%E2%80%93NKVD_Conferences
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-Soviet_Commercial_Agreement_%281940%29

Quote
We aren't talking about China or India here, we are talking about economic liberalism. China for instance is a nation that learns from its mistakes and history, and is influenced by communism, socialism and confucianism. Thusly China invests heavily in clean energy, unlike other "developed" nations like the US, which do NOT learn from their mistakes.

It's kind of ridiculous to say that "a nation learns from its mistakes". Nations do not learn, governments do not learn, only people learn. I don't feel like typing a whole economic history of modern China, but suffice to say, China's present economy very little resembles "communism, socialism" or Confucianism. The latter culturalist reference gets batted around so much, but let's remember: the "lowest" caste in a Confucian society is the merchant. Ha-Joon Chang tackles this issue quite well in his book "Bad Samaritans". The link to the relevant chapter is here:
http://www.sed.manchester.ac.uk/research/events/conferences/povertyandcapital/chang.pdf

As for the economy, the present Chinese system is heavily "publicized" in the sense that huge portions are still owned or heavily regulated by the government, but very few businesses borrow from Communist ideology in anyway. Most are structured exactly the same way as any western corporation is, with the exception that the state and other party cadres are sole shareholders. For example, a great number of businesses that emerged from the economic reform period were Township and Village enterprises that were "owned" by the collective communities, but in most cases the de factor (if not de jure) ownership resided among a few entrepreneurial individuals and the politically well-connected. Class distinctions are high, and by most accounts, growing. It could simplistically be described as a 'mafioso' economy, where as long as you grease the right palms, you can go far.

As for environmental policy, the case is mixed. I'd say China does better than some western countries (US and Canada, chiefly), but far worse than most European countries. Keep in mind that investments in green technology are not the same as use: China is still heavily reliant on coal and its use of oil (as witnessed by many African and even some Canadian oil investments) has been growing steadily. Many 'landmark' environmental programs, such as "eco-cities" have not only been full of marketing shlock, but have also failed to materialize. A professor of mine is a specialist in urban Chinese environmental policy, and I recall her telling me about the "green cities" program in China, which used a variety of indicators to rank cities by their environmental health. One of the indicators was something like "% green surface" (measured by satellite imagery, I guess). As a result, many cities began converting the farmland they had annexed, but not yet developed, into massive green lawns in order to gain in this ranking.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/chinas-first-ecovillage-proves-a-hard-sell/2006/08/25/1156012740582.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Township_and_Village_Enterprises


Finally, as for the test itself, a few people pointed out some of the implicit assumptions it makes about the relationships between the axis. The left-right dichotomy is meaningless to me, a believer both in open trade, and lassiez-faire policy (in the original sense of the term, meaning that the government doesn't provide 'favours' for certain industries at the expense of others), as well as a decent regulatory framework and a strong social 'safety net'. In other words, the left-right axis hides a more nuanced distinction between government intervention in the economy, public regulation of business, and public services.

I think LCS is a pretty good satire of modern political discourse and its LIBERAL v. CONSERVATIVE construction, but we should remember that politics is about policy, and policy is not simply dichotomous, but polychotomous.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 04:34:55 am by municipalis »
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Alexhans

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Re: ARE YOU TRULY LIBERAL?
« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2010, 06:39:31 am »

polychotomous, what kind of pokemon is that?  XD

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Coronel_Niel

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Re: ARE YOU TRULY LIBERAL?
« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2010, 10:42:42 am »



-9.98 and -9.97

L.I.B.E.R.A.L
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 11:11:15 am by Coronel_Niel »
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municipalis

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Re: ARE YOU TRULY LIBERAL?
« Reply #98 on: February 22, 2010, 04:05:13 pm »

polychotomous, what kind of pokemon is that?  XD

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Don't worry, I had to look the work up beforehand to make sure it existed.
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Heron TSG

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Re: ARE YOU TRULY LIBERAL?
« Reply #99 on: February 22, 2010, 11:39:15 pm »

> China is seeing 10% per capita growth, and total emissions have passed the US by 8% (China = 1.08 * US).  If the first world wants to clean up it's act, it'll have to force China to change it's policy (and kill the economic growth that is pulling it into the first world) or else see the rest of our manufacturing jobs go to places of cheap labor and eco-unfriendly policies.

China has over 4 times the US's population, so they're still pretty green compared to you guys.
You realize per capita is referring to amount vs. population, right? China is only slightly higher, but they produce more bulk output, as their population is FOUR TIMES as big.
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Dwarf

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Re: ARE YOU TRULY LIBERAL?
« Reply #100 on: February 23, 2010, 12:31:20 am »



So, I'm a leftie. Yay!
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EuchreJack

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Re: ARE YOU TRULY LIBERAL?
« Reply #101 on: February 23, 2010, 11:32:36 pm »

I'm sorry, but necromancy is a decidedly Conservative, Authoritarian notion, thus I must deem you a traitor to the ideals of Liberalism, without evaluating the accuracy of your arguments.  In fact, were I to look at such things as logic, I would myself be a traitor to the Liberal Cause.  Heart before Wisdom!

(As a brief aside, it is very dangerous to dismiss someone as psycotic and not look deeper into a person, as such statements ensure "psycotics" will hold sway over otherwise civilized nations of the world in the future.  Hitler didn't hate communists because they disagreed with him [well, maybe he did, how could any of us know what he really thought, him being almost a pathological liar], but because they were the "enemy", and a common scrapgoat in the 1930s.  None of the ideas in his speeches were new or original, but rather reflected flawed theories that were propogating at the time.  He was an opportunist along with being a psycho, but it was the opportunism that lead him to power.  If 1930s Germany had been most afraid of silly short men with mustaches trampling on thier civil liberties, he most likely would have put on stilts, shaved his mustache, and claimed that only the Nazi party could properly protect the civil liberties of the populace.  He would have still attempted to become a dictator, but through a different route.)

municipalis

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Re: ARE YOU TRULY LIBERAL?
« Reply #102 on: February 24, 2010, 01:36:51 am »

I completely agree with your historical presentation. My use of the term 'psychopath' was only an attempt to condense most of what you had said into a single, digestible line in what was already an overlong post. My main concern was to dispel the idea that Hitler (and to extend the notion, just about any other dictator in modern and possibly ancient history) was driven by some sort of "misguided" ideological zeal. Too often history's monsters are forgiven (this is more true for communists leaders like Lenin and Mao) for their crimes in this manner. I don't doubt that he was genuinely an anti-Semite, but his actions reached the peak that they did because they helped him consolidate his power.

And on that note: necromancers get such a bad wrap. There's nothing inherently wrong about raising the dead, so long as they are willing and you treat them as equals in your community.
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