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Author Topic: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)  (Read 11598 times)

Muz

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2009, 01:41:20 am »

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What do you believe the prerequisite for going to heaven are?
Now that's a hard question for a mortal to answer. I'm no theologist, so I have to quote someone who is. According to one cleric I know, all sins are forgivable, including watching pornography, stealing, and adultery, because these will be punished on earth, by law and by karma. But the only unforgivable sin is worshipping something other than God. Belief in itself is not enough, it's actual worship that counts. Failure also includes those who worship God, but also 'worship' something else, like those who worship money would openly defy God's will for the sake of money.

According to him, being in God's presence requires a strong enough soul, and the only way to strengthen your soul is to do things in the name of God. The reason why heaven is good is because it's closer to God. It's the sort of thing that people would come to and settle at. The bad people with weaker souls would settle much, much further away, and having so many bad people in one area is what leads to hell. Some of these bad people will find a way into heaven, but being too weak, they would be forced back into hell.

To answer the question, it's simply doing things in the name of God and doing a whole bunch of them. Picking your nose in the name of God is pointless, because God does not tell you to pick your nose. Actions like abstaining from sex, giving to charity, helping your family, the pursuit of knowledge is what really counts.

But since the cleric I'm quoting is only a mortal working from what he has, it's possible that he's wrong too, but he has the general perspective.
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Realmfighter

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2009, 01:52:15 am »

But thats my main reason that i'm an athiest.

By those rules, Hitler would be in heaven, because he was a devout Cristian who did all those horrible things in the name of god!
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Kagus

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2009, 01:56:05 am »

Now, that's something that never quite sat well with me...   You can be a kind, altruistic, caring person who will do good deeds for the sake of helping others, but if he doesn't do it all in the name of God (and not just any god, or the general concept of one, but one specific god) then he's headed for hell.

I will do things I view as good acts because I feel like doing them.  But I will not do anything in the name of God.  If I end up getting sent to Hell for this, okay.  Being an Atheist, I don't particularly see that as very likely, but whatever.

I haven't seen anything that would make me believe in God.  God, being omniscient, should realize that he hasn't done anything that would convince me of his existing, so my natural course of action would be to not believe in him.  Simple as that.

And if he decides, in his infinite wisdom, to punish me to an eternity in hell for not worshiping him, I'll wallow in the fiery pits and shove my finger heavenward while telling the Lightbringer how he's running things all the wrong way.


That was actually an idea for a comic I thought of long ago.  An atheist dies and gets sent to the afterlife.  He's been a good person, but he didn't worship God.  The normal thing to do would be to drop him off in Limbo, but Limbo was abolished by the pope, so instead he gets sent back and forth between Heaven and Hell.

And so, trading off, both God and the Devil have to deal with this atheist wandering around their respective realms while complaining about how none of it makes any sense, from a logical point of view.

Neruz

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2009, 02:15:35 am »

I suppose without a test, then there'd be people in the afterlife arguing that they didn't have a chance to prove themselves. Arguably, God could force us to shut up, but that goes against the free will concept.

Arguably no-one is going to argue with a being that is literally omnipotent and omniscient. That is not an argument you can win.

Additionally arguing with God about who deserves to get into Heaven does not sound like a trait that would get you into Heaven in the first place.

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Anyway, the Islamic version of Adam and Eve implies that humans were created to prove to everyone that Satan was a rebel, which suggests that God would test people just to prove in front of other people; that implies that his word alone doesn't count for much.

What it mostly implies is that God is a dick.

Rezan

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2009, 02:24:58 am »

According to the Bible, anyone who believes in Jesus and that Jesus died for their sins will be going to heaven if one is a Christian. This means that if we are to assume that evil people are not allowed to enter Heaven, then only people who do not believe in Jesus and what he supposedly did for us are evil. This came from an ancient Jewish ritual where an animal would be sacrificed, and its blood would rinse your sins from you. Thusly Jesus' blood rinsed the sins of all mankind (who believe he did it). Everything else is just padding to make Christianity seem like less of a Jewish sect (and any mention of Hell is made by Jesus' apostles, not by Jesus himself, IIRC).

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Cyx

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #50 on: September 27, 2009, 06:50:37 am »

Spoiler: Quotewar. (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 10:04:13 am by Cyx »
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Strife26

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2009, 06:55:33 am »

I guess that I'll be getting involved now.  :-\



The major issue that I see is that we (humanity in general) try to understand God. For all of our awesomeness (and mankind has done a lot of really cool stuff), we can't compare to a omni-anything. For example, how would God (assuming that He's (I'm politically incorrect with my pronoun genders, sue me) omniscient), perceive time? I'm no Bible reader, but I'm fairly sure that there's a passage that reads something to the effect of "A thousand years are to God as a blink of an eye and the blink of an eye is as a thousand years." If you know everything, than linear time doesn't work. There isn't a cause and effect anymore, becuase there isn't a negation. Human knowledge can't rationalize God and time (and by extension, Free will, which is determinate upon time and cause and effect).

By that same token, how can we assume that our evil is God's evil? I believe that actions have absolute (if relative) morality, but I know that they don't always line up with the moralities of others. How can we push them on God?

Basically, Humans can't put God in our terms.


Then we have what may be the ultimate question (after 6*7), why? Why would God put us here? I've got no answer. It gets us back into trying to comprehend things we can't. The only thing I can do is try to live my life as I see fit.


Next, we have heaven. I'm more Lutheran than anything else (although that's pretty shaky). I think of the afterlife as a literal heaven and hell. Honestly I like Narnia idea that generally good people are rewarded in the afterlife (I have faith that our Creator is benevolent, and faith in Jesus shouldn't be hard and fast, especially when there were people before Jesus. Of course, you can take some Biblical passages with certain translation that imply that while Jesus was in hell (between the Crucifixion and Resurrection), he preached to the dead and was able to bring them up). I think that, deep down, in our heart of hearts, we all know what's good and evil. DID Hitler really think he was doing right? Mind you, this has little basis in Scripture.

Honestly, it's rationalization. I don't really know anything about theology (although I've claimed to many times). I beleive in God, and have an afterlife picture that I'm comfortable enough with. I quash the doubts as they come.


After this point, I don't know what I was talking about. I'm tired and it doesn't really fit with the thread. I copied and pasted it to Life and Times if you feel like discussing my fucked up mindset.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Cthulhu

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2009, 10:16:57 am »

But thats my main reason that i'm an athiest.

By those rules, Hitler would be in heaven, because he was a devout Cristian who did all those horrible things in the name of god!

I'm going to ignore Godwin's law and the fact that Hitler likely only gave lip service to Christianity to point out that God is not a sorting machine.  A sentient being has the power to decide whether a person's motivation excuses their actions.
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Gorjo MacGrymm

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #53 on: September 27, 2009, 12:27:09 pm »

Chritian Theology/The New Testament/Jesus Himself states:  All sins are equal.  Period.  Stealing a penny, killing a person, all the same in Gods eyes.
I know A LOT of peoples heads are gonna explode over that.  That is because they view God/morality/and the universe from a self centric, self justifying and just plain selfish point of view.  They equate their knowledge of good and evil as being greater than Gods.  If heaven exists, then it exists outside of time, or to put it another way, an eternity of time that is boundless.  Into this someone tries to say that for the briefest moment of time we exist on earth, do to an action we took, we cannot goto Heaven is ...well....ridiculas.  The only way to heaven in Christian theology is to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  NOTHING ELSE IS REQUIRED EVER.  Converesely, not doing that is the ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN.  Setting levels of sin is what sinful men to do to try to feel superior to others.  For man to try to qualitate sin and say who should and should not be allowed into heaven is a JOKE.


I am a sinner and I approve this message.

Also, If being capable of stoping harm but not doing so is malevolent, then I guess all parents are malevolent towards their children when they make them learn the hard lessons themselves  (which of course they have to because some lessons cannot be taught or forced).
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LegoLord

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #54 on: September 27, 2009, 12:57:00 pm »

That last sentiment is exactly what I was trying to say earlier.

But I've always heard that it was simply pursuit of doing good that got you into heaven; that religion did not matter, so long as you act with good will to others, as that is what Jesus (supposed son of God, truth of that's up to your beliefs) preached.
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Judas Maccabeus

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #55 on: September 27, 2009, 12:57:37 pm »

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Fieari

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #56 on: September 27, 2009, 03:30:47 pm »

Let me throw a wrench into the mix from a jewish perspective.  (Not to say this is THE jewish perspective... Judaism is far too diverse to make that claim.  This is -a- jewish perspective though)

How many of you are assuming that omnipotence means that you, as one entity, can perform unlimited actions upon another seperate and distinct entity?  In D&D terms, we'd be talking about a PC (or even an NPC) with Inifnite Strength, Infinite Magic, Inifnite Hit Dice, etc etc.

What about thinking about omnipotence instead in terms of the DM himself?  Or more than that, the collective understanding of the world shared by all the players.  Omnipotence is then not that a character in the story can lift the biggest rock in the universe, but instead that the people sitting around the table can change the story just by thinking it.  Because the story only exists in the context of their thoughts.

Which would mean, for the purposes of our debate, the G-d not only allows evil to exist, in a sense he actually actively creates and sustains it moment by moment.  Because existence itself only has meaning because G-d is thinking it up.

(Which is not to say everything IS G-d, like many hippie mystics would say. Just because Mylar the Wizard doesn't exist apart from the stories I tell about him at the D&D table doesn't mean that Mylar the Wizard IS me.)

This is supported by scripture.

Isaiah 45:7 G-d is the speaker:
"[I am the One] who forms light and creates darkness, I make peace and create evil; I am G-d, Maker of all of these."

It's even in the tetragrammaton, the name G-d gave to Moshe when asked for it.  I mean, the Yod and Hey and Vav and Hey aren't just four letters to refer to our three letter word "G-d".  It's a peculiar conjugation of the verb "To be" or "Is" in Hebrew... the conjugation makes the word more akin to "That from which everything is able to exist"... perhaps you could say "The Isifier"[1] as in, "He makes me is."

But anyway, so the Isifier creates (present tense active verb) evil, otherwise evil wouldn't exist.  So how can we call the Isifier good?

Well, in part, that's like asking "Is existence good?"  Or asking, "Would you have prefered to not exist?"  How about "Shouldn't we just kill everyone so no one could do evil anymore?"  Funny how doing that would be evil anyway...

But we still have to deal with the paradox.  Jewish sages have come up with what I believe are some pretty good answers.  Here's one that's pretty down to earth.

G-d let's Evil exists (continually creates evil) to make Good better.  And I don't mean by contrast... this isn't a ying-yang thing.  If there was no evil, there could still be good. (If there was no good, however, there could be[2] no evil, because existence is good)  It's just that there are certain KINDS of Good that require evil first.  The Good of destroying evil, for instance, can't exist without having evil first. The Good of Repentence can't exist without doing evil first-- and please don't underestimate how Good repentence is.  Rabbis will tell you that true repentence turns past evils into good, and a higher kind of good.

And yet, the Talmud has a story that Moshe, who got to talk to G-d like you or me would talk to a friend, side by side, Moshe asked G-d "Why did you create evil?" and G-d refused to tell him. In fact, said that was going to be the the ONLY thing he wouldn't tell him. Why?

Imagine that you see a lady screaming in pain.  You'd think that was bad, right?  But if you then figured out that the lady was screaming in pain because she was experiencing the birth of her first child in a happy marriage, you'd feel better about it, knowing the pain was for a good cause, right?

G-d basically told Moshe that he didn't want us to feel better about the existence of evil.  He wanted us to hate it and fight against it constantly.  So he refused to explain himself.

On a far more mystic and spirtual level, the question arises about how can a perfect and good G-d have any association with evil at all?  And the answer is that G-d seperates himself from the evil he creates via what Ezekial called the "Chasmal", which is understood to be the basis for modern day Jewish tallit katans (a garment of clothing observant jews wear).[3]  But here we're getting pretty mystic and kabbalistic and I don't think we need to go that far right now.

[1]A Chassidic Rabbi suggested this translation to me.  I kind of like it, for its weirdness.
[2]Remember, the word "be" means existence.
[3]I read this in a book by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan
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Gorjo MacGrymm

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #57 on: September 27, 2009, 03:40:49 pm »

Wow, thanks Fieari, thats some stuff i am going to research further.  Awesome
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Jude

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2009, 03:59:11 pm »

Chritian Theology/The New Testament/Jesus Himself states:  All sins are equal.  Period.  Stealing a penny, killing a person, all the same in Gods eyes.

You know, I used to throw that around to make various points, but then I realized I'm not actually sure where, and subsequently IF, Jesus says that. What verse is that declaration in.
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Fieari

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Re: ~Epiricus (another religious discussion)
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2009, 04:08:33 pm »

Chritian Theology/The New Testament/Jesus Himself states:  All sins are equal.  Period.  Stealing a penny, killing a person, all the same in Gods eyes.

You know, I used to throw that around to make various points, but then I realized I'm not actually sure where, and subsequently IF, Jesus says that. What verse is that declaration in.

A quick google search suggests that Jesus didn't say it.  It was James:

James 2:10
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
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