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Author Topic: Discussion: Liquid and Gasseous Enemies  (Read 1776 times)

Granite26

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Re: Discussion: Liquid and Gasseous Enemies
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2009, 03:06:17 pm »

This topic is only dealing with those without the means of recollecting themselves once seperated from their bodies, except through healing or through lengthy dedicated actions

That's simply not distinct enough from normal, solid bodies to warrant a difference.  If I chop a rat with a sword, it is killed.  If I chop an elemental with a sword, it is killed.  Same thing.  If I hit an elemental with a sword, and fail to run it completely through, does it sustain no damage?  If not, then it's again the same thing.

How about we limit the discussion to 'creatures that can't be killed by cutting or bludgeoning damage'?  That's really what we're talking about here, isn't it?  Some form of creature or entity that isn't affected by having a physical object rooting around in it's physical space.

There's a lot of real world examples.  Slimes, molds, swarms, nanite clouds...

To a certain extent, a lot of the 'specialized tags' could be managed by the materials system.  A water elemental should be damaged by a range of temperatures the same way a dwarf is, and should certainly freeze (and take that damage) at the same temperature it's constituent water would.

You're right I agree with you in suggesting the a slime or pollution elemental taking damage from soap should wait until the appropriate sphere-magic tags get added, possibly in the magic arc.

alfie275

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Re: Discussion: Liquid and Gasseous Enemies
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2009, 03:24:59 pm »

If its flamable, burn it, if it is a non flamable liquid drink it, that is the dwarven way!
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Re: Discussion: Liquid and Gasseous Enemies
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2009, 03:30:15 pm »

How about we limit the discussion to 'creatures that can't be killed by cutting or bludgeoning damage'?  That's really what we're talking about here, isn't it?  Some form of creature or entity that isn't affected by having a physical object rooting around in it's physical space.

So... how do you kill it?
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alfie275

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Re: Discussion: Liquid and Gasseous Enemies
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2009, 06:17:09 pm »

In the case of a gas creature I imagine some sort of fan or bellow, much like those seen in forges, would be effective.
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Neonivek

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Re: Discussion: Liquid and Gasseous Enemies
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2009, 08:39:36 pm »

Quote
If I chop a rat with a sword, it is killed.  If I chop an elemental with a sword, it is killed.  Same thing.  If I hit an elemental with a sword, and fail to run it completely through, does it sustain no damage?  If not, then it's again the same thing.

If you don't kill it in one strike (Mind you, cutting it through may not kill it) then what happens is the force of the impact does harm it as your taking away from its mass. As well your disrupting its body making it that much closer to destruction.

Swarms work on a similar basis but cannot have limbs cut off.
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Nivim

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Re: Discussion: Liquid and Gasseous Enemies
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2009, 11:24:28 pm »

 Elementals usually have a certain amount of energy they use to keep themselves together, when this energy is depleted the just stop being animate. It isn't really about losing material (chop a water-tentacle off and it just reconnects), but about losing energy. Every time you make the elemental have to put itself back together, or restart itself (an air elemental spinning up again or a fire elemental bursting back), it uses up energy. But it also uses energy to move and attack, but usually not as much because it has balance (equilibrium, cohesion, structure, tension, in-whatever-shape-it-finds-easiest-to-use). So an elemental would actually be a valid creature to give a kind of "hit point bar" of energy, with normal damage for state changes. This means that elementals cannot be killed by lucky hits, cannot be debilitated, and cannot be killed by a single stray arrow.
 I'm not sure where elementals would get more energy or survive any length of time, they usually require a pure magic source of some kind. This does not necessarily require the magic arc, as one could use a placeholder that allows elementals to simply regenerate when in their own element, with an excuse like "draining kinetic energy" (wind, water), "draining heat" (fire elemental in magma), or "decomposing contained material" (earth).
 I do recall one story that was describing a "windigo" in which the creature of air simply picked up a person and disintegrated them with winds significantly faster than the average tornado. The creature was slightly visible for a while, then it would need another person...
 As before, an earth elemental is far more likely in the placeholder to need to eat than an air elemental. One would expect if some entity was a living in a certain quantity of matter it would have abilities over that matter which transcend normal reactions of life. So it might be able to drain types of energy going through it to store as magical energy. Elementals might even become an important and rare resources that allows transformation of normal energy types into magic energy, if you can convince/coerce them that is.

 I didn't think swarms would work that way, I thought they just had an insanely high ability to dodge from the small size of the bugs.
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Candlejack

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Re: Discussion: Liquid and Gasseous Enemies
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2009, 12:09:26 am »

Elementals should work be using regeneration. They regenerate pretty fast, but heal instantly when they consume(by being on the same space) a lost part of them. These parts deteriorate and turn back into non-magical elements quickly, so attacks that explode them would be the most effective. This could also work for oozes. There should also be a tag that allows body parts to exist in a formless state.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2009, 12:11:16 am by Candlejack »
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Re: Discussion: Liquid and Gasseous Enemies
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2009, 07:00:03 pm »

Elementals should work be using regeneration. They regenerate pretty fast, but heal instantly when they consume(by being on the same space) a lost part of them. These parts deteriorate and turn back into non-magical elements quickly, so attacks that explode them would be the most effective. This could also work for oozes. There should also be a tag that allows body parts to exist in a formless state.

A thought - could elemental/oozes/whatever be killed by sheer exertion?  You fight one long enough, it "collapses from over-exertion", and bam, puddle of water.  A tag that made a body part fall off if the target is exhausted would integrate well with the current system, if I'm not mistaken.  You could use it to kill the whole creature, or in the case of something like a creature with hands of fire, it's hands would extinguish and become unusable.  A rock elemental would just lose integrity and fall into a bunch of stone parts.  Air elementals are still a conundrum, but some vague body part definitions could solve that problem.  The exertion tag could be complimented by a tag that says "hold shape regardless of physical state," for the weirdness that would result.  I'm kind of backtracking on some of what I've said, but I still thing the addition of new tags and gameplay elements (badumtsh) should be kept to a minimum.  I don't think anything I've suggested would be heavily co-opted by the magic arc, apart from changing "exertion" to willpower or some environmental source.

Other thought:  the exertion tag could have a setting or another tag that states that the body part in question can be reformed and repaired if the creature in question was no longer exhausted.
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Neonivek

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Re: Discussion: Liquid and Gasseous Enemies
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2009, 12:40:10 am »

I wonder if I added it

But bleeding is something that is also optional for the creatures but not something that is actively excluded.

Many Elementals when injured are depicted as leaking their elements.

An Interesting extension would be a solid creature who when a material is seperated from their body it transforms into that element. So you could have Ifruits whome if you chopped the arm off of you would suddenly be blown back by a torrent of flame.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 12:42:07 am by Neonivek »
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