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[Neonivek]

Alright so Toady isn't sure how to do Liquid and Gasseous Enemies and frankly I don't blame him since in order for them to function appropriately they require a bit more then simply making a solid membrane. In fact I barely know how to do it (Spent over a week thinking about it), even less programming wise, so I am creating this topic to hopefully get the community's say into how it would function.

Note: Once again I am without spell check so I hope I at least do decently.

There are several differences between solid enemies and ones of the other two states. While there is cross overs between them this is how it basically functions

1) They are capable of defending against attacks by allowing it to pass through them
2) They rely on great strength rather then mass to do damage or defend against attacks
3) Their Bodyparts serve only as a container

Anyhow so the question is how to translate that into a functioning creature? The two types of creatures we will focus on are Water and Air Elementals (maybe oozes).

So lets deal with this one at a time: Don't judge any section based on names

--Dealing with the Insubstantial--

First is dealing with the rules that protect them from being destroyed while also allowing them to be destroyed. There are Three kinds of deaths for creatures of this type
1) They run out of material (Elementals that can bleed could have this happen easily)
2) They lose bodily cohesion
3) Solid weakpoints

[Impervious:###]: Imperviousness defends against damage but especially peircing and slashing damage. Harming a creature is based more off of size and bashing damage then anything else. Anything that causes them to lose mass. This tag determines how much they can ignore these attacks.
-Is Slashing and Piercing useless: No, an elemental is capable of defending themselves and a Polearm axe would still likely do more damage then a simple mace.
--ALTERNATE: Imperviousness could be determined by the opposite of the materials mass as well as its state.

[Mass(*Attribute*)##]: This allows them to set an attribute to determine their mass when defending and attacking. Water Elementals seem likely to use Stamina and Strength while Wind Elementals use Dexterity and Strength (Oozes use plain Stamina). Some creature could reasonably use mental attributes for this.

Alright this is as far as I can wrap my brain around this today. So lets see where this discussion goes (if there is any)

[Warlord255]

Gas creatures should be skipped until magic or certain "alchemical" reactions are in; that's the only way I could see defeating a creature like that.

Edit: Not to say liquid or ooze creatures have to be out. Defeat via mass loss could be done: nonsolid creatures would be able to rearrange and reform themselves, so breaks and such would just be varying degrees of mass loss.

[Neonivek]

Gas creatures should be skipped until magic or certain "alchemical" reactions are in; that's the only way I could see defeating a creature like that.

Destroying a Gas creature is effectively distrupting their bodies enough that they lose control of it and effectively destruct.

That and diluting them in the air.

They arn't unbeatable but they are the "Ironmen" of the Non-solid enemies.

A Good Catapult hit should destroy an Air elemental

[Bricks]

I'd rather see a solution utilizing the raws already in place, so that the whole system in place doesn't go to waste.  What if I wanted a creature that was somewhere between a jelly and a human - say, with bones for structure, but only red goo for flesh, muscle, and skin?  Your imperviousness attribute seems like a step backwards.

I think liquid/colloidal/jelly creatures aren't going to be a problem with the new raws, assuming they are made of a material that doesn't just melt immediately.  An avascular jelly-like creature would basically take huge wounds, but unless it was cloven all the way through, the weapons would just get stuck in and deal no additional damage.  Leaving you with a pincushioned, but unharmed, jelly.  There are complex things that could be done, like having a jelly that is cut into two smaller jellies, but that would be an effect also usable on more standard creatures (like the oft-mentioned starfish).

If a liquid creature is made of a material that would be liquid at normal temperatures, some notion of magic would have to be implemented to justify their existence.  The same could be said for gaseous creatures.

For any of these to work, you'd have to consider how they would attack.  Something that is simply dust or water wouldn't really be able to deal any damage, without some sort of magical augmentation.  Hopefully jelly attacks will be more creative than just tackling their enemy.  Both types could attempt to smother/suffocate enemies.  If swallowing ever comes into play, jellies could be terrifying.

I can't say I really understand what an air elemental is supposed to be, nor how it would interact with creatures apart from using straightforward bludgeoning attacks.  Even fire elementals seem more legit.

[Neonivek]

The problem Bricks is that in the current system, liquid creatures simply don't work.

A Water Elemental would quickly dispurse and unless given obscene strength or an amazing attack it would barely tough an enemy.

Something that is simply dust or water wouldn't really be able to deal any damage

Exactly! Tornados, Explosions, Tsunamis, Hurricanes, Sonic Booms, Waterpicks, Boiling Water, Freezing Wind, all Harmless! (Joke!)

But in all seriousness, an Air elemental is effectively a self contained Tornado/Hurricane, it attacks with powerful gusts of wind either powerful enough to bash you, throw you, of if concentrated enough it could even cut you. This is all without actually bringing in foriegn objects, a Air Elemental who picked up tiny rocks for example could have enough force to effectively throw pebbles through platemail.

Then we get into sucking up enemies and while their swirling vortex of a body (assuming it is one) they sufficate while having all their limbs dislocated and ripped appart. Not to mention that if the creature was poisonous they would also be injesting and absorbing the poisonous body of the creature.

Though Water and Wind Elementals are supposed to have control over what they take in.

[Bricks]

Then maybe I should have been clearer in saying "Wait for the magic arc before throwing tags into the game."  The only reason I would support such a change is if such creatures were a must-have for the versions released before the magic arc, and even then, I'd like to have the new version to play around with to see if there is a better way.

[Neonivek]

Then maybe I should have been clearer in saying "Wait for the magic arc before throwing tags into the game."  The only reason I would support such a change is if such creatures were a must-have for the versions released before the magic arc, and even then, I'd like to have the new version to play around with to see if there is a better way.

The Magic Arc is very far away and deals exclusively with magic spells.

Anyhow we already got Materialmen and Semi-Liquids (Solid creatures with Gooey insides) and some of the other aggregates. Liquid and Gas creatures are a natural extension

[Warlord255]

Then maybe I should have been clearer in saying "Wait for the magic arc before throwing tags into the game."  The only reason I would support such a change is if such creatures were a must-have for the versions released before the magic arc, and even then, I'd like to have the new version to play around with to see if there is a better way.

The Magic Arc is very far away and deals exclusively with magic spells.

Anyhow we already got Materialmen and Semi-Liquids (Solid creatures with Gooey insides) and some of the other aggregates. Liquid and Gas creatures are a natural extension

This is true; however, in the case of Gasmen, it seems nearly impossible to defeat them except through magical or alchemical means, while a Liquidman with no solid bits could still be feasibly done with the mass-loss system.

[Neonivek]

Gasmen are defeated by dispersing them. It works exactly like Liquid creatures but with the effect of certain attacks being even weaker.

Though I forgot that Liquid and Gas creatures can also have "Force Bodies" or rather an invisable force that contains their bodies. Once that force is destroyed they effectively disperse.

Though I can understand why you have a hard time wrapping your head around it. If they had the ability to recollect themselves they would be unbeatable except through those means (and indeed any gaseous creature entirely immune to physicality would be). This topic is only dealing with those without the means of recollecting themselves once seperated from their bodies, except through healing or through lengthy dedicated actions

So a Smog monster for example when hit by a Catapult would be hit with so much force that its body explodes. It cannot recollect itself and is dead. (the same would happen with a Balistae).

An Adventurer could effectively cause them to bleed out or fall to peices with weaponry in the same way you can Disperse a thick cloud of smoke into the air.

[Granite26]

D&D uses a 'AoE damage only' for masses, which is flies as well gasseous entities.

For the 'uselessness' of this, I think the same system could be used for army ants and locusts as for air elementals and water elementals.

[Warlord255]

D&D uses a 'AoE damage only' for masses, which is flies as well gasseous entities.

For the 'uselessness' of this, I think the same system could be used for army ants and locusts as for air elementals and water elementals.

That's a spectacular point, actually!

Unfortunately, very few things in DF - if any - fall under the purview of area damage.

[Neonivek]

Large weapons, especially those with a sizable surface area, are effectively smaller scale Area of Effects.

The “Swarm” rule for dungeons and dragons was for spells. Other then blunt and AoE everything else did half-damage (Spells that targeted creatures individually, unless it could be done on mass, did nothing against swarms)

[Granite26]

The “Swarm” rule for dungeons and dragons was for spells. Other then blunt and AoE everything else did half-damage (Spells that targeted creatures individually, unless it could be done on mass, did nothing against swarms)

Version I read was 1 damage per swing...

That whole system could be faked as a bunch of parts with no connectivity information and nopain.  A single slash would destroy a part, but couldn't cut through to another.

Catapults do 'destroyination' damage, iirc, fire and magma and water would play well (coverings would hit all parts at once).  Only thing to test would be the imp's fire blast, and see if destroying one part by raising it's temperature would properly spread through the entire creature.

[Bricks]

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to start a fight.  I'm trying to discuss what I think is a cool but difficult-to-define topic.  I presume that if someone is willing to post their ideas publicly, they aren't looking for high-fives and hugs, so I'm going to criticize and comment openly.

The Magic Arc is very far away and deals exclusively with magic spells.

Far away, yes, but

MAGIC: There are no specific decisions nailed down yet, although we've thought about it a lot. It's probably best to go for a very general system here, as in the first Armok attempt. Then the world generator and entities can decide what they want to use from what's available. Early efforts might be to make dwarven artifacts more interesting and to increase the power and variability of enemy leaders, rather than focusing on traditional spell-casting adventurers.

implies to me that the magic arc is explicitly not just about casting spells.  Also, it's unavoidable that some magic is implemented before the magic arc is truly developed for things like artifacts.  This could mean some sort of temporary tags to make fluid foes possible, though I'd rather see a system that is general enough to be consistent with the material raws and whatever magic system Toady whips up.

Anyhow we already got Materialmen and Semi-Liquids (Solid creatures with Gooey insides) and some of the other aggregates. Liquid and Gas creatures are a natural extension

Along with Plasma and Supercriticalfluid creatures.  I just think it's a little silly to say, OK, the creatures are divided into two kingdoms: normal creatures, with developed, detailed body parts and physically accurate interactions with their environment; and magic bags with their own special set of rules.  If you just implement water elementals, you have to start considering every special circumstance they can encounter - do they ever change states?  Does changing states kill them?  What if you throw a contaminant on them - does it become part of their body, or does it sit on top?  Would salt kill it?  If a water elemental lost some of its mass, can it get it back by jumping in a pond?  Would a river empower or obliterate it?  How does it know when it is dead?  Mass loss, maybe, but it could just shrink or break up into smaller elementals.  Integrity loss, maybe, though you'd be setting yourself up for all of the possible consequences there - how do you gain integrity?  What is integrity - is it some sort of super surface tension, or is it magic?  If it is surface tension, can you kill it with soap?  If it's magic, how do you kill it without using magic yourself?  How does it kill you?  Body slams?  Drowning?  How does it move?  Does it float?  Is it an embodiment of flowing or stationary water?

Sure, Toady could program in a hundred tags to deal with every exception.  But those are the questions for only one type of creature.  I don't thing many of the tags could be generalized so that I could make a fire elemental, or a wind elemental, or a spirit of darkness.  You'd end up with tags like [ALWAYSBURNING] and [AFRAID_OF_SOAP] and [STRONGER_IN_SHADOWS].  If elementals are must-have, they should just be hardcoded until generalizations can be discussed in terms of spheres (which I think magic will be governed and related to).  In the mean time, I think we can make do with the updated raws, as they seem incredibly flexible and the end user wouldn't notice much of a difference anyway until the magic arc is properly implemented.

This topic is only dealing with those without the means of recollecting themselves once seperated from their bodies, except through healing or through lengthy dedicated actions

That's simply not distinct enough from normal, solid bodies to warrant a difference.  If I chop a rat with a sword, it is killed.  If I chop an elemental with a sword, it is killed.  Same thing.  If I hit an elemental with a sword, and fail to run it completely through, does it sustain no damage?  If not, then it's again the same thing.

[wilsonns]

Would be cool if the liquid or semi-liquid(slimy) creature could create bodyparts, like a hand or a head