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[Vector]

In summary, Vector's story is NOT consistent, and he's been dropping scum-tells left, right, and center. And instead of acknowledging his mistakes, he is trying to downplay them.

I'm not trying to downplay my mistakes.  I'm trying to tell you why they're happening: that being, it is hard for me to figure out how to say things in a way that other people will understand them.

I don't really feel like I'm making mistakes.  I feel like I'm being perfectly reasonable and clear, and that all of you folks just can't seem to understand what I'm saying.  Your minds are bending my words into improper forms.  As such, I'm not apologizing for your perception of mistakes.  I'm trying to re-explain the situation in a format comprehensible to you.

Just as I cannot blame your mind for failure to understand my meaning, I cannot blame myself for speaking in a way you find difficult.  The most I can do is try to change, and hope that with time I will make more sense to you.

[Vector]

Unvote.

Also, this would be a hell of a lot easier on me if you would ask me actual questions, rather than throwing WoT and telling me that my explanations just aren't addressing the problem.  What information do you want, anyway?

Further, I'd like to know where Diakron, Org, Pandarsenic, and ToonyMan are.  I realize that 2/4 of these are trying to change their play style and 1/4 always looks like scum, but it would be nice if y'all would stop hiding behind your excuses and show up.

Who do all of you think are town, and who do you think is scum?

[ToonyMan]

Ok, fair enough.  Seems like a good summary.  Unvote.

On the other hand, ToonyMan, you've been very, very quiet.  Even as you were accused, you only seemed to respond half heartedly.  Also, as Free Beer has been attacking Vector, you have said nothing.  Where's your normal aggressive play?  Why are you trying to avoid detection?

Free Beer is lying, I'm not Vector's scum partner!  But, Free Beer is being even worse then me.  Nothing will change his opinion.  What I see is scum being super aggressive so that nobody thinks he could possible be scum.  I BET HE IS.  You had the right opinion Leafsnail.  Free Beer is being over-aggressive and thinks he can just sway and bend the words of everything Vector is saying.  While I do not trust Vector I don't see anything "wrong" with his posts.  This whole thing could even be set up!  Free Beer lynching his scum--well, no.  It would be insane to bus your partner day 1.  I don't feel what we are doing is right.  Remember Paranormal 1?  If you don't, let me tell you the main thing in one sentence.  The three scum were Sir Josh, NUKE, and Webadict.  You just know how that turned out.  They took over the game and nobody could do anything.  What I'm saying is Free Beer could well be doing the same thing.  Sure, I don't know the truth, but Free Beer and Org are scum in my eyes.  Sure I can attack Free Beer all I want, and I will, but Free Beer doesn't care.  I will be attacking him so that others can see his scum self.

Let's get the facts straight,

1.  Free Beer says Vector and I are scum partners.  Well sure, I said Free Beer and Org are scum partners, but I'm not saying both are scum together.  As in, if one flipped scum then the other must be scum, because that is simply NOT true.  Pairing is not good not good at all.  Ask Pandarsenic when he's scum.  He loves his pairing.

2. The whole Org thing.  So I guess Vector said Org was scum at first, but then said he was town.  IS THIS A LYNCH ABLE OFFENSE?  So I guy changes his opinion, it means nothing!  Free Beer gave ExKirby a FoS and guess what?  HE WAS TOWN.  OH NO BOO-HOO.  Give the guy a break.

3. The Day-Kill on Apostolic.  You say "we" kill Apostolic to frame you.  We did nothing.  I didn't kill anyone last day! (sound weird :-D).  Do you really expect me and Vector to defend ourselves from this?  It's not defendable, you know this.  You just want to get a skilled player you know that can damage you and some nutcase to die while you continue to kill people off during the days.

4. The whole Vector doing nothing with all these votes on him.  He is doing the best he can to defend himself.  You are just closing your ears and yelling at him.  You don't care what he has to say, he's just scum, right?!  GAWD.  I see what people mean when I pull that stunt.


To sum things up:

Free Beer is forcing a lynch on someone he knows to be Town.  He is scum.  Just to prove a point.  I Unvote and vote Free Beer again!


FAKE-EDIT:

@Vector:  Look what I typed up Vector!  :-D

[Free Beer]

In summary, Vector's story is NOT consistent, and he's been dropping scum-tells left, right, and center. And instead of acknowledging his mistakes, he is trying to downplay them.

I'm not trying to downplay my mistakes.  I'm trying to tell you why they're happening: that being, it is hard for me to figure out how to say things in a way that other people will understand them.

I don't really feel like I'm making mistakes.  I feel like I'm being perfectly reasonable and clear, and that all of you folks just can't seem to understand what I'm saying.  Your minds are bending my words into improper forms.  As such, I'm not apologizing for your perception of mistakes.  I'm trying to re-explain the situation in a format comprehensible to you.

Just as I cannot blame your mind for failure to understand my meaning, I cannot blame myself for speaking in a way you find difficult.  The most I can do is try to change, and hope that with time I will make more sense to you.

This is a load of bull. Let's go over the alleged miscommunication, shall we?

If you were in ExKirby's place and I were in Org's, I wouldn't have told you to switch your vote to me.  That is because I am town, and I would rather have somebody unconfirmed (to me) die than myself (a known townie in my little world).

You just admitted that you know Org is town. Only scum would know that.

Your intent was quite clear. You wanted to say that Org would not have pointed out that ExKirby could have saved himself. Presumably somehow this was supposed to justify your action in pointing out that action to ExKirby. However, you are sorely mistaken. As I mentioned previously:

• You thought Org was town and ExKirby was scum. Your action, if successful, would have saved someone you thought was scum in order to condemn someone that you thought was town. My explanation, that you are scum who tried to manipulate ExKirby into attacking Org, makes more sense.
• Your entire hypothetical situation was constructed around the idea that Org was town, and you forgot to mention that your assumption or account for the case where Org was scum. This is a major scum-tell - if you're scum, you already know Org's alignment, and it influences your thinking no matter how much you try to avoid it. By neglecting to account for the situation where Org was scum, you revealed that you knew more than you were letting on.

[Vector]

In summary, Vector's story is NOT consistent, and he's been dropping scum-tells left, right, and center. And instead of acknowledging his mistakes, he is trying to downplay them.

I'm not trying to downplay my mistakes.  I'm trying to tell you why they're happening: that being, it is hard for me to figure out how to say things in a way that other people will understand them.

I don't really feel like I'm making mistakes.  I feel like I'm being perfectly reasonable and clear, and that all of you folks just can't seem to understand what I'm saying.  Your minds are bending my words into improper forms.  As such, I'm not apologizing for your perception of mistakes.  I'm trying to re-explain the situation in a format comprehensible to you.

Just as I cannot blame your mind for failure to understand my meaning, I cannot blame myself for speaking in a way you find difficult.  The most I can do is try to change, and hope that with time I will make more sense to you.

This is a load of bull. Let's go over the alleged miscommunication, shall we?

1. Screw you.

If you were in ExKirby's place and I were in Org's, I wouldn't have told you to switch your vote to me.  That is because I am town, and I would rather have somebody unconfirmed (to me) die than myself (a known townie in my little world).

You just admitted that you know Org is town. Only scum would know that.

Your intent was quite clear. You wanted to say that Org would not have pointed out that ExKirby could have saved himself. Presumably somehow this was supposed to justify your action in pointing out that action to ExKirby. However, you are sorely mistaken. As I mentioned previously:

• You thought Org was town and ExKirby was scum. Your action, if successful, would have saved someone you thought was scum in order to condemn someone that you thought was town. My explanation, that you are scum who tried to manipulate ExKirby into attacking Org, makes more sense.
• Your entire hypothetical situation was constructed around the idea that Org was town, and you forgot to mention that your assumption or account for the case where Org was scum. This is a major scum-tell - if you're scum, you already know Org's alignment, and it influences your thinking no matter how much you try to avoid it. By neglecting to account for the situation where Org was scum, you revealed that you knew more than you were letting on.

2. No.  No, no, no, no, no.

My intent:

IF we had the original situation with ExKirby and some other random player X (but not Vector) in Org's position, I would tell ExKirby to switch his vote.  This is because ExKirby was being a moron, and I wanted to help him out.  Yes, even if he's being scum.  Being helpful is good!

IF we had some random player Y in ExKirby's position but myself in Org's, I would not tell Y to switch his vote.  This is because I am town, and as such do not feel like committing suicide.


My entire hypothetical situation is constructed around my being town--which is an incontrovertible fact.  I keep trying to say this.  It has very little to do with Org.

Why don't you ask me answerable questions, damn it?  You keep telling me what my intentions are and saying that I'm slipping.  You won't listen to my defenses as I try my hardest to explain myself.  This is extremely frustrating.  It feels like I can't do anything, and yet you keep trying to goad me into talking more.  Are you milking this for all it's worth, so you can keep the town focused on me while you and your scumbuddy get a free ride?

If you want more information out of me, ask me something.  As it is, you're telling me to defend myself over and over, then telling me my explanations are just plain wrong.  It's making me irritated.



3. Thanks, Toony.

[Free Beer]

1. Screw you.

This is why I play Mafia with people over the internet, and not my friends.

2. No.  No, no, no, no, no.

My intent:

IF we had the original situation with ExKirby and some other random player X (but not Vector) in Org's position, I would tell ExKirby to switch his vote.  This is because ExKirby was being a moron, and I wanted to help him out.  Yes, even if he's being scum.  Being helpful is good!

My point remains. Vector though ExKirby was scum. Vector helped ExKirby. What the heck was Vector thinking?

IF we had some random player Y in ExKirby's position but myself in Org's, I would not tell Y to switch his vote.  This is because I am town, and as such do not feel like committing suicide.


My entire hypothetical situation is constructed around my being town--which is an incontrovertible fact.  I keep trying to say this.  It has very little to do with Org.

That isn't what you said. You said if I were in ExKirby's place and you were in Org's place (thereby implying you took on Org's alignment as well), you would not tell me I could save myself, because you knew you (in Org's place) were town. I present the following to back up my case:

If you were in ExKirby's place and I were in Org's, I wouldn't have told you to switch your vote to me.  That is because I am town, and I would rather have somebody unconfirmed (to me) die than myself (a known townie in my little world).

The statement which I underlined indicates that in your hypothetical you had stepped into Org's position completely. If you were simply talking about having the a vote tie, you would not have written the underlined statement. Furthermore, talking about your own alignment in this hypothetical makes no sense: it only has a point within your whole argument if it explains why Org was not going to do anything, thus allowing motivatation your own action.

Why don't you ask me answerable questions, damn it?  You keep telling me what my intentions are and saying that I'm slipping.  You won't listen to my defenses as I try my hardest to explain myself.  This is extremely frustrating.  It feels like I can't do anything, and yet you keep trying to goad me into talking more.  Are you milking this for all it's worth, so you can keep the town focused on me while you and your scumbuddy get a free ride?

If you want more information out of me, ask me something.  As it is, you're telling me to defend myself over and over, then telling me my explanations are just plain wrong.  It's making me irritated.

So then convince me you aren't scum. All you'd really need is a consistent explanation for your behavior that takes into account everything I've mentioned. But really, I think that's impossible too. You'd be right to be frustrated, because I've caught you in your own lies and I am not going to let you escape easily.

3. Thanks, Toony.

If you were town, you'd recognize this as Toony attempting to buddy up to you. You'd remember I already have the two of you associated, and that, by defending you from me instead of defending himself from Leafsnail, he's only associating himself with you further. You'd be suspicious, not receptive. Your response only serves to incriminate both of you even more.

[Vector]

My point remains. Vector though ExKirby was scum. Vector helped ExKirby. What the heck was Vector thinking?

Vector was thinking ExKirby was a beginner, and also a human.  Vector considers the value "human" more important than the value "potential scum."  Vector has a rule of functionality which implies that Vector should help humans.

If you can't understand what I'm saying, please let me know.

IF we had some random player Y in ExKirby's position but myself in Org's, I would not tell Y to switch his vote.  This is because I am town, and as such do not feel like committing suicide.


My entire hypothetical situation is constructed around my being town--which is an incontrovertible fact.  I keep trying to say this.  It has very little to do with Org.

That isn't what you said. You said if I were in ExKirby's place and you were in Org's place (thereby implying you took on Org's alignment as well), you would not tell me I could save myself, because you knew you (in Org's place) were town. I present the following to back up my case:

If you were in ExKirby's place and I were in Org's, I wouldn't have told you to switch your vote to me.  That is because I am town, and I would rather have somebody unconfirmed (to me) die than myself (a known townie in my little world).

The statement which I underlined indicates that in your hypothetical you had stepped into Org's position completely. If you were simply talking about having the a vote tie, you would not have written the underlined statement. Furthermore, talking about your own alignment in this hypothetical makes no sense: it only has a point within your whole argument if it explains why Org was not going to do anything, thus allowing motivatation your own action.

Huh?  No.  I meant "In my perspective, I am town.  Others may declare me non-town, but given my data-set [a PM from the mod saying that I am, in fact, town] I am town."

I didn't mean to imply that I was taking on Org's alignment.  I meant "me, in the vote-tie situation."  It is important that I am town there, as well as town in all the other situations.  What I am saying is that I would encourage him to vote a potential-townie, but not a confirmed townie.  In my mind, I am a confirmed townie.  I know I am not a confirmed townie to the rest of you.  Hence, I said "CT in my mind" rather than "CT," because I am not a CT in the standard sense.

If I'd stepped into Org's position completely, wouldn't the answer be "Do nothing, because I'm Org?"  It's clear that I didn't make a full transition.

So then convince me you aren't scum. All you'd really need is a consistent explanation for your behavior that takes into account everything I've mentioned. But really, I think that's impossible too. You'd be right to be frustrated, because I've caught you in your own lies and I am not going to let you escape easily.

Consistent explanation... consistent explanation... how about "VT who communicates badly."  Oh, wait.  Haha.  You think that's a lie.  You won't believe me.  IT'S THE TRUTH, YOU MORON.  I'M NOT SCUM HIDING BEHIND LIES AND EXCUSES, I AM TOWN WHO HAPPENS TO FOLLOW A DIFFERENT THOUGHT PROCESS THAN YOU DO.  PLEASE STOP BEING AN ASSHOLE.  Perhaps you may think the story is too outlandish, that I am in fact Ye Standarde Humann who is just a moron-scum and speaks like a fool and makes a thousand slips.  I am trying to tell you the truth, and you are not believing me.  I am not trying to make excuses, I am trying to tell you the situation.  I am not saying "Don't lynch me because I have teh communication problems and am like someone you need to feel sorry for."

No!  I am trying to tell you "That situation is not the one you should be staring at.  Your scumbucket is in another castle, please listen to me, you are wrong, you are going to lose yourself the game because you won't look at a pattern that has stretched all over the place, since you cannot see past a person who makes mistakes to a larger design.  I understand your suspicions and understand why you would want to lynch me, but I am not the right one.  There are lurkers, there are fools, there are others who are being suspicious who I cannot see, and you should look for them because you are distracting yourself with a person who cannot tell things the way you need to be told them."

If you want to lynch me, then you can, but don't say I didn't try to convince you otherwise.  I'm trying my hardest.

3. Thanks, Toony.

If you were town, you'd recognize this as Toony attempting to buddy up to you. You'd remember I already have the two of you associated, and that, by defending you from me instead of defending himself from Leafsnail, he's only associating himself with you further. You'd be suspicious, not receptive. Your response only serves to incriminate both of you even more.

If I were HUMAN, then I'd take someone who is DEFENDING ME as an ACT OF KINDNESS.  This is not about scum vs. town.  This is about not being able to tell you things correctly.

Maybe he is just playing for game theory.  If so, then I feel bad.  I got hoodwinked again!  What calamity.  Vector is stupid.  Too bad... already knew that.

If he is not, then I am profoundly grateful that someone would actually listen past the haze of words and see someone struggling.



Sometimes I cannot just play a game as a game.  The outside world intrudes.  I apologize.

[dakarian]

Current count.
Free Beer[1]: Toonyman,
Org[1]: Vector
Vector[3]: Free Beer, Org, Pandarsenic
Toonyman[1]: Leafsnail

Not voting: Diakron

Deadline: Monday, 12th, 11am EST

[Free Beer]

Vector was thinking ExKirby was a beginner, and also a human.  Vector considers the value "human" more important than the value "potential scum."  Vector has a rule of functionality which implies that Vector should help humans.

If you can't understand what I'm saying, please let me know.

I understand that it is more important to you to buddy up to the other players than to catch the scum.

Huh?  No.  I meant "In my perspective, I am town.  Others may declare me non-town, but given my data-set [a PM from the mod saying that I am, in fact, town] I am town."

I didn't mean to imply that I was taking on Org's alignment.  I meant "me, in the vote-tie situation."  It is important that I am town there, as well as town in all the other situations.  What I am saying is that I would encourage him to vote a potential-townie, but not a confirmed townie.  In my mind, I am a confirmed townie.  I know I am not a confirmed townie to the rest of you.  Hence, I said "CT in my mind" rather than "CT," because I am not a CT in the standard sense.

If I'd stepped into Org's position completely, wouldn't the answer be "Do nothing, because I'm Org?"  It's clear that I didn't make a full transition.

Given your current explanation, that hypothetical had no point within the context of your larger argument. Are you just throwing out words as a smoke screen?

"VT who communicates badly."  Oh, wait.  Haha.  You think that's a lie.  You won't believe me.
[...]
If you want to lynch me, then you can, but don't say I didn't try to convince you otherwise.  I'm trying my hardest.

You're a math major who knows at least basic Analysis. You're educated enough to be able to come up with a decent argument. We've seen what you're capable of when you proved that the Scum Group was Abelian. Your current performance is far below that.

So yeah, I don't believe you. And I've got evidence to back me up.

If I were HUMAN, then I'd take someone who is DEFENDING ME as an ACT OF KINDNESS.

If you were town and you didn't recognize the obvious buddying, then after I pointed out ToonyMan's suspicious behavior toward you and its implications, you would then become suspicious instead of defending him. Your second response incriminates both of you even more.

This is not about scum vs. town. This is about not being able to tell you things correctly. [...]

Oh, excuse me. I thought this thread was dedicated to a game of Mafia. I'll see myself out.

[dakarian]

Two notices to everyone:

I'm going to end up missing that 11am deadline tomorrow.  I have two choices:

End it midnight tonight or
midnight tomorrow night

Accepting votes: Whichever has more by tonight follows through.  If there's a tie I'll base it on the conversation.

Second: Diakron has requested a substitution due to RL matters. 

[Vector]

Vector was thinking ExKirby was a beginner, and also a human.  Vector considers the value "human" more important than the value "potential scum."  Vector has a rule of functionality which implies that Vector should help humans.

If you can't understand what I'm saying, please let me know.

I understand that it is more important to you to buddy up to the other players than to catch the scum.

It's more important to be kind than it is to win a game.

Huh?  No.  I meant "In my perspective, I am town.  Others may declare me non-town, but given my data-set [a PM from the mod saying that I am, in fact, town] I am town."

I didn't mean to imply that I was taking on Org's alignment.  I meant "me, in the vote-tie situation."  It is important that I am town there, as well as town in all the other situations.  What I am saying is that I would encourage him to vote a potential-townie, but not a confirmed townie.  In my mind, I am a confirmed townie.  I know I am not a confirmed townie to the rest of you.  Hence, I said "CT in my mind" rather than "CT," because I am not a CT in the standard sense.

If I'd stepped into Org's position completely, wouldn't the answer be "Do nothing, because I'm Org?"  It's clear that I didn't make a full transition.

Given your current explanation, that hypothetical had no point within the context of your larger argument. Are you just throwing out words as a smoke screen?

Nope.  I'm exhausting the possibilities so that you can't establish any contradictory behavior in my argument.  Essentially, "I would act as I did in all cases except for the case where I would be killed."  If I said "I would always act like that," it would be telling a lie.

Essentially, think mathematically.  I eliminated the pathological argument before you asked me, so that my proof would make sense.

"VT who communicates badly."  Oh, wait.  Haha.  You think that's a lie.  You won't believe me.
[...]
If you want to lynch me, then you can, but don't say I didn't try to convince you otherwise.  I'm trying my hardest.

You're a math major who knows at least basic Analysis. You're educated enough to be able to come up with a decent argument. We've seen what you're capable of when you proved that the Scum Group was Abelian. Your current performance is far below that.

I'm a math major who is good at playing with numbers and bad at playing with people.  The properties of people are much more difficult to decipher than those of mathematical structures.  A mapping of sorts can be performed between Mafia procedures and general social skill.  That is why I am here, trying to play with you.  It may not be working well, but I'm trying.

Further, math usually doesn't frustrate me.

So, this is my point.  Ability to make social arguments does not necessarily correlate to ability to make arguments in general.  I am skilled at looking at systems with simple objects, and figuring out how the objects interact based on known properties.  This works well if things have binary truth-values.  This does not work well if we're working with people, which are confusing and fuzzy.

If I were HUMAN, then I'd take someone who is DEFENDING ME as an ACT OF KINDNESS.

If you were town and you didn't recognize the obvious buddying, then after I pointed out ToonyMan's suspicious behavior toward you and its implications, you would then become suspicious instead of defending him. Your second response incriminates both of you even more.

  Sorry, I see things differently.  Plus, if I were scum with him... wouldn't I have thanked him in our scumchat?  No, instead I thank him on the thread, because I'm grateful.  I can be grateful to him and suspicious of him simultaneously.

Further, I really want to know what Pandarsenic and Org have to say before I go off trying to kill him.

Additionally, town can defend town.  I'm not going to go try to get him lynched just because you say so.

This is not about scum vs. town. This is about not being able to tell you things correctly. [...]

Oh, excuse me. I thought this thread was dedicated to a game of Mafia. I'll see myself out.

  Yeah, I'm here to play Mafia.  I'm also here to try to get along with people.  Sometimes one of these goals stomps on the other one.

Example of Mafia stomping amity: BM3, D1, myself and Diakron

Example of amity stomping Mafia: this.




Mod: Longer day, please.

[ToonyMan]

MOD:  I vote longer day.

[Free Beer]

It's more important to be kind than it is to win a game.

So you admit it! You're buddying! You're scum!

Nope.  I'm exhausting the possibilities so that you can't establish any contradictory behavior in my argument.  Essentially, "I would act as I did in all cases except for the case where I would be killed."  If I said "I would always act like that," it would be telling a lie.

Essentially, think mathematically.  I eliminated the pathological argument before you asked me, so that my proof would make sense.

Doesn't work. Your hypothetical involved me taking the place of ExKirby. Your argument now is that you'd help a beginner in any case other than the one that leads to your death. I'm not a beginner.

I'm a math major who is good at playing with numbers and bad at playing with people.  The properties of people are much more difficult to decipher than those of mathematical structures.  A mapping of sorts can be performed between Mafia procedures and general social skill.  That is why I am here, trying to play with you.  It may not be working well, but I'm trying.

Further, math usually doesn't frustrate me.

So, this is my point.  Ability to make social arguments does not necessarily correlate to ability to make arguments in general.  I am skilled at looking at systems with simple objects, and figuring out how the objects interact based on known properties.  This works well if things have binary truth-values.  This does not work well if we're working with people, which are confusing and fuzzy.

What you said only applies to analyzing and/or reading people. I am referring to arguments, which use the exact same principles. Specifically, I asked for a consistent story that explains your behavior. You should be able to come up with that.

Sorry, I see things differently.  Plus, if I were scum with him... wouldn't I have thanked him in our scumchat?  No, instead I thank him on the thread, because I'm grateful.  I can be grateful to him and suspicious of him simultaneously.

No, if you're both scum then this was planned in advance, because I'm out to get you, and you're both trying your hardest to deflect attention away. Much like what you're doing here:

Further, I really want to know what Pandarsenic and Org have to say before I go off trying to kill him.

It's possible that you realized ToonyMan's mistake and thanked him as a way of covering his ass.

Additionally, town can defend town.  I'm not going to go try to get him lynched just because you say so.

Town can defend town. Does town reciprocate without both parties being confirmed? Hell no.

Yeah, I'm here to play Mafia.  I'm also here to try to get along with people.  Sometimes one of these goals stomps on the other one.

Example of Mafia stomping amity: BM3, D1, myself and Diakron

Example of amity stomping Mafia: this.

So Mafia trumps Amity when you're town, and Amity trumps Mafia when you're scum. It all makes perfect sense!

CRUCIFY THE SCUM!
CRUCIFY!
CRUCIFY!
CRUCIFY!
CRUCIFY!
CRUCIFY!

[Vector]

It's more important to be kind than it is to win a game.

So you admit it! You're buddying! You're scum!

No, you moron.  I admit that I want to get along with people more than I want to win.  If I were "buddying" as scum, then I would be trying to win.  I want to win, certainly... but more than that, I want to be helpful.

Nope.  I'm exhausting the possibilities so that you can't establish any contradictory behavior in my argument.  Essentially, "I would act as I did in all cases except for the case where I would be killed."  If I said "I would always act like that," it would be telling a lie.

Essentially, think mathematically.  I eliminated the pathological argument before you asked me, so that my proof would make sense.

Doesn't work. Your hypothetical involved me taking the place of ExKirby. Your argument now is that you'd help a beginner in any case other than the one that leads to your death. I'm not a beginner.

If you were acting like ExKirby, then you would be.

What you said only applies to analyzing and/or reading people. I am referring to arguments, which use the exact same principles. Specifically, I asked for a consistent story that explains your behavior. You should be able to come up with that.

Arguments don't work if you can't figure out how to transmit your information in such a way that your reader can understand.  My consistent story is that I am a townie who is having trouble giving you explanations.  I see no inconsistencies there.

When I am making mathematical arguments, I must only convince myself and I have convinced every mathematician.  When I am making social arguments, like these, the same is not the case.  I must analyze the other players of this game to give them convincing argumentation.

Town can defend town. Does town reciprocate without both parties being confirmed? Hell no.

Sure they do.  You're being close-minded.

CRUCIFY THE SCUM!
CRUCIFY!
CRUCIFY!
CRUCIFY!
CRUCIFY!
CRUCIFY!

You've got problems, dude.  You're probably town, because no scum would act like this.




So, after I flip town, my suggestion is that y'all take a look at Pandarsenic and Org, just because they've been standing back while we eat each other.  Maybe ToonyMan, too, because Free Beer may be correct about the buddying--though I think he'd be less overt about it.  I also think that Pandarsenic has been a bit too jumpy for my tastes.

Heck, Leafsnail... what do you think about the current mess?  ToonyMan showed up and posted, so I'd like to hear your thoughts.

[Org]

Unvote.

Also, this would be a hell of a lot easier on me if you would ask me actual questions, rather than throwing WoT and telling me that my explanations just aren't addressing the problem.  What information do you want, anyway?

Further, I'd like to know where Diakron, Org, Pandarsenic, and ToonyMan are.  I realize that 2/4 of these are trying to change their play style and 1/4 always looks like scum, but it would be nice if y'all would stop hiding behind your excuses and show up.

Who do all of you think are town, and who do you think is scum?

Thanks for explaining why you want to vote me there, scum.

And Nice OMGUS.