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[Apostolic Nihilist]

We're pretty much set to lynch ExKirby right now. If he flips scum, I think Free Beer is his partner. They both seem to be going after Pandarsenic specifically, and I think they were trying to build a bandwagon earlier on. Also, ExKirby followed after Free Beer blindly towards the beginning of the game (Free Beer voted Pandarsenic then ExKirby voted him, bringing the vote count up to 3).

Now, if ExKirby flips town, we have to look at entirely different suspects. Free Beer could still possibly be scum (he's experienced; he wouldn't bandwagon on an easy lynch as scum), but we also have to look at the people who immediately jumped on ExKirby after the bandwagon started. Org, for instance.

I'll probably have some more to post once I get back from school.

[dakarian]

Current vote:

Org[3]: Pandarsenic, Leafsnail, Diakron
ExKirby[3]: Toonyman, Vector, Org
Free Beer[1]: Apostolic Nihilist
Diakron[1]: ExKirby
Leafsnail[1]: Free Beer

Not Voting:

Deadline: Wednesday, 7th 11am EST

[Leafsnail]

Well, Apost, it might not be as simple as that.  Firstly, an Exkirby lynch is inevitable - I personally feel that someone who lurks is more dangerous than an inexperienced person who posts more.  The reason is because there's absolutely no way to read a lurker, and it would be better if we could get them talking.

Also, if Exkirby is scum (I feel there is a fair likelihood that this is the case) it may not say much about Free Beer.  Scum do bandwagon, yes, but they don't usually follow their team mates - they usually try to follow the crowd in general to avoid suspicion and draw attention away from themselves.

[ExKirby]

Screw, I thought making a suicide would flip suspition. And in a day, things have went from bad to worse.

OK, I really don't have much of an option. If I change my vote to anyone but me, most likely people will either accuse me of picking on innocents, or bandwagoning. Therefor, Unvote vote Self.

I do have a deathwish, however. Just take a look at the middle bit of this quote.

We're pretty much set to lynch ExKirby right now. If he flips scum, I think Free Beer is his partner. They both seem to be going after Pandarsenic specifically, and I think they were trying to build a bandwagon earlier on. Also, ExKirby followed after Free Beer blindly towards the beginning of the game (Free Beer voted Pandarsenic then ExKirby voted him, bringing the vote count up to 3).

Now, if ExKirby flips town, we have to look at entirely different suspects. Free Beer could still possibly be scum (he's experienced; he wouldn't bandwagon on an easy lynch as scum), but we also have to look at the people who immediately jumped on ExKirby after the bandwagon started. Org, for instance.

I'll probably have some more to post once I get back from school.

So if you wouldn't mind, take out Org or Pan. Or both.

[Free Beer]

ExKirby, please review Beginner's Mafia I. It was Dakarian's death wish that actually bought the scum a perfect victory in that game. I'm not sure whether we should lynch you right now. But I will say this: if you flip town, your last words will carry no weight with me.

To Leafsnail:

Leafsnail, why did you defend Pandarsenic when I voted him? And why did you react so strongly to ToonyMan's accusations toward you, both then and now? Is his opinion of you really so important?

I didn't really react strongly to him on either occasion.

And good evening to you too, Toony.  Anti-FoS for behaving just as you normally do.

Can't say I can see the logic behind this, but whatever.  Actually, you seem to be a bit less focused on one player than usual, which is weird, but probably good from a town perspective.

The main reason is because, well, ignoring an accusation of you and trying to stay under the radar isn't helpful from a town perspective. 

That is scum thinking. Your sentence could easily have been "..isn't going to make me look town." A townie who stays under the radar is a townie that makes the scum look bad when they try to make themselves look town.

It's far better to put out your arguments and thoughts than to simply stand back like a meek lamb and do nothing at all.  Yes, perhaps one random vote on me isn't important, but it would be better if we can band together and find scum.

If we band together, they will infiltrate us. Your plan is foolhardy. Or you could be scum laying the groundwork for your future plans.

Also, you seem to be forgetting the background behind you voting Pandarsenic - you only did it because he didn't seize on something I said, partly as a joke, in the random vote stage.  It didn't seem to make much sense as an accusation - especially since scum defending each other is actually fairly rare, rare to the point of defending someone (slightly) being a null tell.  A scum player is more likely to distance himself from his partner, or perhaps even kick him as he falls to avoid drawing suspicion to himself.

Actually, I voted him because you stuck up for Pandarsenic and he stuck up for you - obvious buddying, although I can't tell who started it and who fell for it. The initial incident warranted only a FoS. After I unvoted Pandarsenic, I voted you. That's not a coincidence.

Vote remains on Org, again, for making a post that contained nothing but a bandwagon on an easy target.  It could be lazy town, I suppose, but it's certainly not helpful.

...and this does not strike you as being tunnel-vision because..?

[Leafsnail]

That is scum thinking. Your sentence could easily have been "..isn't going to make me look town." A townie who stays under the radar is a townie that makes the scum look bad when they try to make themselves look town.

This smacks of "Too Towny" fallacy, to be honest.  Basically, "Since he's looks like he's trying to scum hunt he must be pretending to scum hunt".  Contributing to debate is not a scumtell.

If we band together, they will infiltrate us. Your plan is foolhardy. Or you could be scum laying the groundwork for your future plans.

My "plan" isn't anything of the kind.  All I mean is that, while a random vote may not matter, it's better to nevertheless try and tell the person who's voting for you what you think.  Or should I just be dodging questions?

Actually, I voted him because you stuck up for Pandarsenic and he stuck up for you - obvious buddying, although I can't tell who started it and who fell for it. The initial incident warranted only a FoS. After I unvoted Pandarsenic, I voted you. That's not a coincidence.

I'm not saying Pandar is necessarily town, but your reason for voting him ("He sortof defended Leafsnail, in a very mild way") was flawed, as are your current reasons for voting me.  His defense of me earlier did not factor in.

...and this does not strike you as being tunnel-vision because..?

Well, firstly, tunnel-vision is not really a scumtell.  A scum player is more likely to jump his vote around everywhere.  This means that, due to WIFOM, tunnel vision is more of a null tell.  Secondly, it's not tunnel vision as I'm continuing to question other people, however, I want Org to say something useful and let us read him, and am therefore keeping my vote on him to pressure him.

Although, to be honest, Free Beer, I don't think you're too likely to be scum.  A scum player would be more likely to kick me or someone else after a bandwagon has formed, and we are down and unable to defend ourselves properly.  I suppose it's the people who bandwagon onto something without adding anything that you really need to watch.

[ExKirby]

ExKirby, please review Beginner's Mafia I. It was Dakarian's death wish that actually bought the scum a perfect victory in that game. I'm not sure whether we should lynch you right now. But I will say this: if you flip town, your last words will carry no weight with me.

My vote still holds. We've come to a point in the game where I trust NO-ONE.

[Leafsnail]

ExKirby, please review Beginner's Mafia I. It was Dakarian's death wish that actually bought the scum a perfect victory in that game. I'm not sure whether we should lynch you right now. But I will say this: if you flip town, your last words will carry no weight with me.

My vote still holds. We've come to a point in the game where I trust NO-ONE.

That's the point of Mafia.

[Free Beer]

That is scum thinking. Your sentence could easily have been "..isn't going to make me look town." A townie who stays under the radar is a townie that makes the scum look bad when they try to make themselves look town.

This smacks of "Too Towny" fallacy, to be honest.  Basically, "Since he's looks like he's trying to scum hunt he must be pretending to scum hunt".  Contributing to debate is not a scumtell.

Let's go over it again, then. You said you want to exhibit a certain kind of behavior in order to look like a townie because it's helpful to the town. I stated that that behavior was not in fact pro-town, and good scum will exhibit that behavior anyway - because they want to look like they're town.

If we band together, they will infiltrate us. Your plan is foolhardy. Or you could be scum laying the groundwork for your future plans.

My "plan" isn't anything of the kind.  All I mean is that, while a random vote may not matter, it's better to nevertheless try and tell the person who's voting for you what you think.  Or should I just be dodging questions?

Let me ask you something: What's the point of random voting?

Actually, I voted him because you stuck up for Pandarsenic and he stuck up for you - obvious buddying, although I can't tell who started it and who fell for it. The initial incident warranted only a FoS. After I unvoted Pandarsenic, I voted you. That's not a coincidence.

I'm not saying Pandar is necessarily town, but your reason for voting him ("He sortof defended Leafsnail, in a very mild way") was flawed, as are your current reasons for voting me.  His defense of me earlier did not factor in.

Then what was this?

The fact that you are reciprocating and defending him as well definitely does not look good for either of you.

That was right before I voted penguin trenchcoat guy. It seems that it is you that has forgotten.

...and this does not strike you as being tunnel-vision because..?

Well, firstly, tunnel-vision is not really a scumtell.  A scum player is more likely to jump his vote around everywhere.  This means that, due to WIFOM, tunnel vision is more of a null tell.  Secondly, it's not tunnel vision as I'm continuing to question other people, however, I want Org to say something useful and let us read him, and am therefore keeping my vote on him to pressure him.

I'm going to disagree with you here. Take a look at Vector's behavior in Beginner's Mafia 1. Or my behavior in your recent Kingmaker. Or Mephansteras' behavior in Vote Mafia 3. Finding a nice, safe perch from where you can fling your suspicion without looking scummy is a very tempting maneuver to make.

Although, to be honest, Free Beer, I don't think you're too likely to be scum.  A scum player would be more likely to kick me or someone else after a bandwagon has formed, and we are down and unable to defend ourselves properly.  I suppose it's the people who bandwagon onto something without adding anything that you really need to watch.

What was the purpose of this bit here? Were you trying to reassure me that you think I'm town, in hopes of getting me to lay off? Isn't that what you did to ToonyMan, and which sparked my interested in you in the first place?

[Leafsnail]

Let's go over it again, then. You said you want to exhibit a certain kind of behavior in order to look like a townie because it's helpful to the town. I stated that that behavior was not in fact pro-town, and good scum will exhibit that behavior anyway - because they want to look like they're town.

Which would make it a null tell.  So why are you calling me out on it?

Let me ask you something: What's the point of random voting?

It depends, really.  It gets a response, it starts debate, it gets all the players to come down and express what they think.  I prefer to answer questions when random voted rather than just dismissing them.

Then what was this?

The fact that you are reciprocating and defending him as well definitely does not look good for either of you.

That was right before I voted penguin trenchcoat guy. It seems that it is you that has forgotten.

Sorry, I phrased it ambiguously.  I meant that his defense of me did not factor into my challenging of one of your points.  As I say, I'm not necessarily defending him, but your reason for targetting him was flawed.

I'm going to disagree with you here. Take a look at Vector's behavior in Beginner's Mafia 1. Or my behavior in your recent Kingmaker. Or Mephansteras' behavior in Vote Mafia 3. Finding a nice, safe perch from where you can fling your suspicion without looking scummy is a very tempting maneuver to make.

Indeed it is.  On the other hand, it's also quite a good move for a town player to make - and it's something that a lot of players do.  To say that playing like a towny is a scumtell is a fallacy.

What was the purpose of this bit here? Were you trying to reassure me that you think I'm town, in hopes of getting me to lay off? Isn't that what you did to ToonyMan, and which sparked my interested in you in the first place?

Well, no.  Firstly, my anti-FoS was more of an RVS joke than anything else - after all, some people do RVS based on avatars or random.org.  The main reason I said it is because, when two people have a discussion with each other, tunnel vision often develops.  It becomes "OMG if he's lynched and he's flipped town then the person accusing him is scum".  This isn't always the case, and this can have absolutely disasterous consequences (worst example I've seen was the aforementioned Vote Mafia 3, where the town's two most valuable roles nuked each other).  I'm not saying it so you'll lay off - I know that you're a good player, and therefore won't drop suspicion on someone for something as trivial as that.  But I'm making it clear that suspicion of me does not automatically make you scum in my eyes, and if I am lynched it does not mean the town should immediately go after you day 2.

[ExKirby]

I can't make heads or tails of that.

[ToonyMan]

Screw, I thought making a suicide would flip suspition. And in a day, things have went from bad to worse.

OK, I really don't have much of an option. If I change my vote to anyone but me, most likely people will either accuse me of picking on innocents, or bandwagoning. Therefor, Unvote vote Self.

I do have a deathwish, however. Just take a look at the middle bit of this quote.

We're pretty much set to lynch ExKirby right now. If he flips scum, I think Free Beer is his partner. They both seem to be going after Pandarsenic specifically, and I think they were trying to build a bandwagon earlier on. Also, ExKirby followed after Free Beer blindly towards the beginning of the game (Free Beer voted Pandarsenic then ExKirby voted him, bringing the vote count up to 3).

Now, if ExKirby flips town, we have to look at entirely different suspects. Free Beer could still possibly be scum (he's experienced; he wouldn't bandwagon on an easy lynch as scum), but we also have to look at the people who immediately jumped on ExKirby after the bandwagon started. Org, for instance.

I'll probably have some more to post once I get back from school.

So if you wouldn't mind, take out Org or Pan. Or both.

Gah, come on.  This is what you have to say.  That you give up and are lynching yourself.  Town or Scum you have to fight to the last second.  Nobody gets anywhere when you just stop.

Also, like Leafsnail said (or Jim I don't remember) saying that Org or Pandar is scum and should be lynched the next day is nothing.  You may be town, but that doesn't mean they're scum.  (although I believe you and Org are scum).

[ExKirby]

Screw, I thought making a suicide would flip suspition. And in a day, things have went from bad to worse.

OK, I really don't have much of an option. If I change my vote to anyone but me, most likely people will either accuse me of picking on innocents, or bandwagoning. Therefor, Unvote vote Self.

I do have a deathwish, however. Just take a look at the middle bit of this quote.

We're pretty much set to lynch ExKirby right now. If he flips scum, I think Free Beer is his partner. They both seem to be going after Pandarsenic specifically, and I think they were trying to build a bandwagon earlier on. Also, ExKirby followed after Free Beer blindly towards the beginning of the game (Free Beer voted Pandarsenic then ExKirby voted him, bringing the vote count up to 3).

Now, if ExKirby flips town, we have to look at entirely different suspects. Free Beer could still possibly be scum (he's experienced; he wouldn't bandwagon on an easy lynch as scum), but we also have to look at the people who immediately jumped on ExKirby after the bandwagon started. Org, for instance.

I'll probably have some more to post once I get back from school.

So if you wouldn't mind, take out Org or Pan. Or both.

Gah, come on.  This is what you have to say.  That you give up and are lynching yourself.  Town or Scum you have to fight to the last second.  Nobody gets anywhere when you just stop.

Also, like Leafsnail said (or Jim I don't remember) saying that Org or Pandar is scum and should be lynched the next day is nothing.  You may be town, but that doesn't mean they're scum.  (although I believe you and Org are scum).

Yeah, maybe so, but I've not got much of an option. No matter who I vote, I can only see me on the lynch.

[Vector]

Dude.  ExKirby.  It was all tied up before you voted for yourself.  If you want Org dead that badly, move your vote over and kill 'im.  This is not hard.

[ExKirby]

So long as you don't accuse me of bandwagoning... and as soon as I get one accusation, I'm swinging my vote back.

Unvote vote Org.