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Author Topic: The Philosophy Thread  (Read 5632 times)

Neruz

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2009, 06:12:49 am »

Quantum Mechanics doesn't work with anything except Quantum Mechanics. Ovbiously it's not going to work with Determinism, as Determinism states that the future is caused by a chain of events in the past, and that if the chain is analysed the future can be predicted (basically the future is fixed and unchanging.)

Quantum Mechanics, by it's very nature, defies this, as the collapse of the wave-form is truely random and the result cannot be predicted in any way, shape or form. Ergo it is at immediate odds with Determinism.


Mostly, Quantum Mechanics remains somewhat nonsensical when you take it outside and do anything with it, hence why so much work has gone into and continues to go into finding a Unified Field Theory.

ChairmanPoo

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2009, 06:47:20 am »

I read that there are determinist interpretations of quantum mechanics. That's as far as my knowledge of the issue goes, however. I'm no physicist, and can't go into the more esoterical background of the matter.
At a more "philosophical" level, however, I do think that being unable to predict something doesn't necessarily imply that this something is not deterministic, though
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Pjoo

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2009, 07:11:03 am »

At a more "philosophical" level, however, I do think that being unable to predict something doesn't necessarily imply that this something is not deterministic, though
Yup, this I do agree with. Wave form cannot be predicted in any way, I just hard time imagining anything truly random. Why would it act any different if there is exactly the same variables present? It just doesn't make sense to me. To me, it makes more sense that it uses timestamp in pseudo-random number generator to "decide" how it acts.
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Neruz

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2009, 07:53:28 am »

Quantum Mechanics doesn't make sense to the layman; that's basically the entire point.


I would be very interested to see a Deterministic interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, considering the two are in direct opposition of each other and are bitter foes, with Determinism stating that if everything can be measured then the future can be predicted perfectly, and Quantum Mechanics stating quite simply that you can't measure everything and some things truely are random chance.

ChairmanPoo

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2009, 08:12:44 am »

Quantum Mechanics doesn't make sense to the layman; that's basically the entire point.


I would be very interested to see a Deterministic interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, considering the two are in direct opposition of each other and are bitter foes, with Determinism stating that if everything can be measured then the future can be predicted perfectly, and Quantum Mechanics stating quite simply that you can't measure everything and some things truely are random chance.
ok, first this:
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that you can't measure everything
This doesn't mean that the outcome isn't predetermined, though. It's not really at odds with determinism.

Anyway, a fast search through wikipedia (No, I dont particularily like it either, but it's not bad as a fast reference)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism#Determinism.2C_quantum_mechanics.2C_and_classical_physics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretation_of_quantum_mechanics
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=127525
Quote
So quantum mechanics is deterministic, provided that one accepts the wave function itself as reality (rather than as probability of classical coordinates). Since we have no practical way of knowing the exact magnitudes, and especially the phases, in a full quantum mechanical description of the causes of an observable event, this turns out to be philosophically similar to the "hidden variable" doctrine.



Also this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretation_of_quantum_mechanics#Comparison

I am in no position to judge the merits of each interpretation from inside the field, though.
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Neruz

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2009, 08:16:57 am »

Ah. The hidden variable doctrine. There's a few hidden variable hypothesis and theories floating around, Einstein hated Quantum Mechanics and felt that it was far too untidy and ovbiously didn't make sense in places. He spent much of his later life looking for his Unified Field Theory in hidden variables.

They havn't faired well though. If there are hidden variables, then they're, well, hidden.

Aqizzar

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2009, 08:17:33 am »

I hate to make two downer posts in the same topic, but what I'd be interested to see is people not trying to invent a bridge between sub-atomic physics and human philosophy.  Quantum Physics sound great to me, I don't understand anything about but at it's most basic it's describing the physical function of the universe at the next level down from protons and so forth.  Fantastic.  But I'm not even going to ask anyone to explain what that has to do with macro-level human behavior, or even macro level physical behavior.  Better yet, if you can answer that question (and don't give it to me), explain to me why you think that connection should be considered to exist.

The idea of relating quantum interactions to human choices and reactions especially strikes me as the modern phrasology for asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  Only in the most absolutely universal, macroscopic interpretation can you even philosophically link sub-atomic movement to observable thoughts and actions.  At what point can we agree that the calculus is so massive, so vague, and so theoretical that the concept itself becomes completely meaningless?

Needless to say, I do not subscribe to Determinism, Quantum related or otherwise.  Not because I personally have no faith in our ability to trace an upwards connection, or a connection from any other source.  More because I consider it an attempt to shrug off responsibility to justify or explain human activity unto itself.  I insist that human behavior and all that derives from that behavior be explained as organic happenstance, not as a negation of any deeper explanation which would be fascinating to study in itself, but because going into the question of action and reaction assuming it has some other impetus removes the need to analyze the actions themselves.

Not that I want to dive into the Definitional Objectivity vs Subjectivity debate either, but I'm an Objectivist for the much the same reasons.  It's not because I inherently believe that things have concrete definitions in themselves - as a former drug-taker, I know full well the power of human observation to affect a reality all it's own.  No, I believe that we must accept that things can be given concrete definitions in themselves, to save our ability to research and analyze the world around us from going into a navel-gazing rot of solipsist deconstruction.  Understanding the real world is hard enough without hobbling ourselves by doubting our own reason and perception, however obvious the limitations.

And now you know why I both love and hate posting in Philosophy Discussion Thread #9184.  I start repeating myself with lots of huge words, usually halfway missing the point in my haste to blurt out my theories with a little triggering from someone else's unrelated statements.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 08:20:04 am by Aqizzar »
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IndonesiaWarMinister

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2009, 08:22:09 am »

Hmm.

Humanity... perceptions, are all from their animalia ancestors, if we go the deist route.

They are just interpretation of the world.

Do you know how plants see the world around them? As black void? Or could they even think about that?

Edit: although, no, I don't subscribe to the MATH IS THE PURE FORM OF THE UNIVERSE!!!!! theories.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 08:24:55 am by IndonesiaWarMinister »
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Armok

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2009, 08:38:56 am »

Most of the stuff disused in this thread isn't philosophy anyway, just sociology/linguistics/physics. The only actual philosophy I can spot here are some traces of sophilism.
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Aqizzar

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2009, 08:44:06 am »

Most of the stuff disused in this thread isn't philosophy anyway, just sociology/linguistics/physics. The only actual philosophy I can spot here are some traces of sophilism.

Aw c'mon, doesn't my stance of "we can't tie ourselves in knots by thinking about thinking" count as a shade of Stoicism or something?  We can start discussing the Hegelian dialectic if you like.


Do you know how plants see the world around them? As black void? Or could they even think about that?

Considering plants don't have nerves or any senses save cellular gravity, I'm going to say no.
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IndonesiaWarMinister

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2009, 08:52:42 am »

But Life can react to the world beside them, right?

So... Even if the whole reacting thing is a mechanism, I'd say they have a mind, too. (Brain is also a mechanism. A computer is, too...)

(Sorry for the b-ad english...)
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Vester

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2009, 08:53:21 am »

Most of the stuff disused in this thread isn't philosophy anyway, just sociology/linguistics/physics. The only actual philosophy I can spot here are some traces of sophilism.

Do you mean Sophism? Sophilism sounds like a disease.
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Neruz

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2009, 09:00:48 am »

But Life can react to the world beside them, right?

So... Even if the whole reacting thing is a mechanism, I'd say they have a mind, too. (Brain is also a mechanism. A computer is, too...)

(Sorry for the b-ad english...)

Plants lack any neural connections, thus they do not have a mind as we would recognise it.

Pjoo

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2009, 09:29:13 am »

Quantum Mechanics doesn't make sense to the layman; that's basically the entire point.
Basic Quantum Mechanics do make sense to me, something being non-causal doesn't... God(well, universe) doesn't throw a dice.

Anyways, thanks for those links.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: The Philosophy Thread
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2009, 11:43:05 am »

Quote
God(well, universe) doesn't throw a dice.
I see what you did there


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