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[Vector]

Hey-hey, looks like we have the thread.  Basically, it's where we discuss if there needs to be more/fewer games, what types of games we'd like to see more of, which we'd like to see less of, etc., etc.  So please go there to discuss your Awesome New Ideas (and if you object, post over here.  Not there).

Also, I'm going to change the OP here pretty soon to reflect the new structure of the subforum.

[Vector]

All right, folks.

We have a problem.  The problem is that we still have far too many games running.  Some of those games are too large.  Pretty much all of the games running right now (other than BMIV) are stagnant or dying.

I think the karma thread fixed some of this, but not other things.  Players don't lose karma for lurking so much that a game dies; as it is right now, we tend towards having maybe 3 or 4 really active players in a game of 12, 6 that chip in from time to time, and 2 that might as well have flaked except for the fact that they're still technically playing.

Further, a lot of games that look really good are being suggested and then proceeding to fall off the board, because no one signs up for them... because everyone's in too freaking many games.

Something needs to be adjusted in this system, though I'm not entirely sure what.  Maybe game-sizes need to be decreased.  Maybe number of games needs to be decreased.  Maybe we need to fine-tune the karma system.  Maybe more mods need to be harder on punishing lurkers, and actually looking at the karma of people who sign up to play.


Essentially, we're trying to build a form of a social contract (in the sense of Rousseau) here.  We have to balance the un-funness of strict rules with the un-funness of games that are all simultaneously dying.  Right now, we are leaning on the latter side.

We all have a personal responsibility to pay at least some attention to the games we are in.  Not all of us have scads of time, but it seems unreasonable to say that a person is playing a game when that person plays scant attention to it.

I think we need to step this up and do something more to address the content-less lurkers.  That's essentially the same thing as flaking, and it's still happening.



Does anyone have any ideas?


EDIT: Additionally, I'll state that hammers seem to be killing a lot of activity.  Mods, I'd suggest going with deadlines for most games unless the hammer-style is required for a particular structure.  At the very least, deadlines keep things moving on a reasonable time-scale.

[ToonyMan]

After Toon Mafia V I won't host a game for a while.

[Pandarsenic]

I'm enforcing a hard cap of 13 in future games, and instead of just hammers, it's going to be deadlines, but hammers will end the day early.

[Vector]

After Toon Mafia V I won't host a game for a while.

I'm enforcing a hard cap of 13 in future games, and instead of just hammers, it's going to be deadlines, but hammers will end the day early.

Thanks for those changes, you two, but I'm not trying to specifically point fingers at you guys.  I also think that the hammers+deadlines idea is particularly good.

Bleh.  I guess I should wait and see what happens when PandarBYOR ends, and hope that it's the main thing causing trouble.

[Pandarsenic]

I'm just saying, I'm feeling the effects of hammers and large games in my BYOR very badly. People feel no obligation to post because they're not in danger of 3-4 people lynching them because nobody posted before deadline.

In fact, [REDACTED FOR CLASSIFIED INFORMATION ABOUT BYOR IN PROGRESS].

[dakarian]

I know that slow running games tend to start with 1 or 2 who dissapear.  Some others start to attack them but, since they get little to nothing in response, they go silent.  Eventually everything falls to a crawl.

The worst cases are helped by the Karma board.  The rest, though has to be handled by the host I think.  They can tell the point between when a player is just using a strategy and when it's weakening the entire game.

I have two strategies I'm testing now to deal with it:

1. NSBM2 is slow but it's the weekend and I always forgive more on the weekend.  Monday, though, if conversation is light I'll set a deadline.  The deadline, though, means that L-1 is necessary to avoid a no lynch. 

2. KWN:DE has a hard 24 hour activity rule.  If you miss it once you are killed. 

I'm watching to see how both go once the weekdays go forward.

[Zai]

I think hosts should be able to detect if there's too many games going on to start a new one. But I also think hosts who just had a game end should not immediately start a new one; they should wait to give other people a chance to start their own games that they've been holding off starting because there were too many games going on right then.

But this leads to more 'board intervention' than I'm really comfortable with. It also leads to self-government of a sub-forum, which isn't necessarily a good or bad thing.

...Basically, I just want "vet" mods to give "cadets" a chance to successfully host their own games from time to time.

The exception to this being the Beginner Mafias, as those are quite possibly necessary at all times to help bring in new players.

[Vector]

I think hosts should be able to detect if there's too many games going on to start a new one. But I also think hosts who just had a game end should not immediately start a new one; they should wait to give other people a chance to start their own games that they've been holding off starting because there were too many games going on right then.

But this leads to more 'board intervention' than I'm really comfortable with. It also leads to self-government of a sub-forum, which isn't necessarily a good or bad thing.

...Basically, I just want "vet" mods to give "cadets" a chance to successfully host their own games from time to time.

The exception to this being the Beginner Mafias, as those are quite possibly necessary at all times to help bring in new players.

Yeah, I'd agree on this, in principle.  I don't really want there to be rules running all over the place, but I do want to try to salvage the subforum.  As-is, I was particularly surprised because it seemed like almost all of the games simultaneously died.

The thing is, I know I frequently sound like I'm talking about self-government.  In some way, I'm trying to convince people to communicate more.  A sort of "Hey, I want to run my own BYOR.  Does anyone mind if I'm the next person to do that?" rather than "Well, I'll run it, and if the entire system crashes again, too bad."

The veteran mods seem to be pretty good about this consideration.  The beginner mods... not so much.  This is why I tried to start up that game discussion thread, in the hopes that mods would get together and start talking about whether or not it was appropriate to run x or y game at a given time, with z size, etc.  I end up feeling that as long as we have a "survival of the fittest" sort of policy here, we're going to keep having horrible size/lag issues.


I also agree with keeping Beginner's up and running at all times.  There's a marked difference between noobs who have played a Beginner's game and those who plunge straight into a standard game.  Further, if we get more players, I think we'll have far fewer problems with game-death.

[Eduren]

I think that an influx of new blood might help alleviate the problems. Right now, we have a lot of people that think "Hey, I've played more than a few games, and I'm having some ideas. Ill try my hand at hosting." The ways we can help mitigate the problems that this causes is to either change the mindset of "Host 'em if you got 'em" or insure that there are enough players to make this sort of thing viable.

Personally, I have an awesome idea for a game but am holding back because I know that I'll just make things worse.

Of course, if I'm right about the root cause then this particular problem should go away on its own as these new players get the urge to host out of their systems. In that case all we have to do is wait.

I don't want to assume things so let me ask this: is there anybody that feels a newbie influx is a bad thing?

[Mephansteras]

I think more players is a good thing, and people should be able to try hosting a mod to see if they enjoy it. However, we are obviously having an issue with too many games.

Perhaps a Mod Thread so we can discuss what games are going to be starting soon and figure out timings?

For example, I have Wizard Duel 3 and Paranormal 12 to run.  I'm holding off right now because of all the games going on. It might be useful to have a way to figure out when would be the best to start from an overall board perspective.

[RedWarrior0]

I think it would help us to have another "information" thread that people should consult before starting games. It would hold info about number of people playing each game, how many different people have been active in the last week or so (to gauge a number of people that play mafia at given time), how far along the games are, how many games are in signups and the number of people needed, etc. It would basically give the info to decide whether or not the time is good to start a game.

Edit: ninja'd by Meph's suggestion of the exact same thing.

[Zai]

For example, I have Wizard Duel 3 and Paranormal 12 to run.  I'm holding off right now because of all the games going on. It might be useful to have a way to figure out when would be the best to start from an overall board perspective.

Good for you, Meph. At least you can resist.

[webadict]

I've always kept a 13-player limit. It's a nice, round figure (If you know what I mean [Hint: You shouldn't.])

I suppose I could stop making games for a bit, and a scheduling thread might be a nice fit. I just think running games is a bit more exciting then playing, since I'm currently computer-less.

[Vector]

I'm actually thinking it might be a good idea to keep a locked thread, pinned to the top of the subforum, which says which games are open with how many slots left (plus a short description).  If anyone thinks that's a good idea, I'll take care of it and keep it up to date.

How does one go about making stuff pinned, though?

I feel we would be well-advised to do this, and I'd be more than happy to maintain the thread in question (I keep mental notes on it, anyway).  I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they'd find it useful.

I'd also keep notes on active games that need replacements, and I'm considering putting up ideas for games that have been suggested but are don't want to be run by the suggesters.  This way, those of us who would like to try modding (but have no idea as to which games they'd like to run) would have an easily accessible resource.

I mention the above category mostly because I am one of those people.


Thoughts?