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[NJW2000]

Value judgments are impossible to make.

No they aren't. It's just that not everyone will agree with you.

[KittyTac]

Point me to where I said I care about objectivity or that I value all viewpoints equally (or at all).

[delphonso]

So glad that Kiwi Farms was scrubbed from the Internet Archive. Inb4 people cry about "information preservation". I like book burnings, if the books being burned are Mein Kampf.

Yeah, I've been having trouble reconciling with the concept of information destruction, but this is one of the ones where I'm like, 'This was good and fine.'

[TD1]

Value judgments are impossible to make.

No they aren't. It's just that not everyone will agree with you.

True! 'Objective value judgments are impossible to make.' 

Point me to where I said I care about objectivity or that I value all viewpoints equally (or at all).

Yea, no, never said you did.
I merely implied that, rather than value all viewpoints equally, you ought to tolerate them equally.

More practically, and as a side-effect of that philosophy, I think that weeds return after being uprooted, but not when they're forced to survive without nutrition. I'd not be surprised to find several similar sites emerging in the next while, reacting to the cruel oppression of the KFs.

And, as an addendum to that addendum, Kiwi Farms was only ever a symptom of the problem. Give people the tools to fight hate-speech wherever they find it, on their own terms, in their own heads - don't launch on a noble crusade against one head of the Hydra.

[KittyTac]

I merely implied that, rather than value all viewpoints equally, you ought to tolerate them equally.

Never.

And they absolutely were the cause of many problems. Their site was responsible for several suicides of innocent trans folk. With it being driven into the Dark Web, their membership has been slashed massively.

You cannot simply ignore them to make them go away, they will keep harassing people. I genuinely hope that the dogwhistles you just dropped are simply because you are naive and not sympathizing with them.

[MaxTheFox]

Ah yes, the classic "you should tolerate the Nazis, or you will be as bad as them". This whole incident is a moral victory against them, because it shows to them that they are not, in fact, invincible. Simply letting them gather and somehow pretending that their victims can fight back without destroying their aggressors does absolutely nothing. I wish pain and suffering upon the "person" by the name of Josh Moon and all of his little cult.

I am indeed not all-tolerant and I am proud of it.

[Great Order]

And, as an addendum to that addendum, Kiwi Farms was only ever a symptom of the problem. Give people the tools to fight hate-speech wherever they find it, on their own terms, in their own heads - don't launch on a noble crusade against one head of the Hydra.

Very much disagree, people have a habit of creating echo chambers, and they tend to snowball a bit. Once it's easy to find one of them, other people who are otherwise quite moderate can more readily get caught up in them and get the less moderate views amplified because, humans being human, they fall to peer pressure. And you can't argue them out of this because people tend to polarise when that happens rather than admit that, logically, their views are bollocks. The best way to convince someone's actually repetition of a point over a long period of time, which is why getting addicted to stuff like Facebook or Reddit can be detrimental if you're only receiving certain viewpoints.

Also the mere act of listening to people's views in a more public/official capacity lends legitimacy to said views. Once someone's on TV spouting off about how group X should be exterminated, most people aren't going to suddenly go "Oh man, they're nuts" because they were already thinking that, but some small number of people are gonna start going "Huh, well if it's on the news it must be a legitimate viewpoint"

[Vector]

I merely implied that, rather than value all viewpoints equally, you ought to tolerate them equally.

More practically, and as a side-effect of that philosophy, I think that weeds return after being uprooted, but not when they're forced to survive without nutrition. I'd not be surprised to find several similar sites emerging in the next while, reacting to the cruel oppression of the KFs.

And, as an addendum to that addendum, Kiwi Farms was only ever a symptom of the problem. Give people the tools to fight hate-speech wherever they find it, on their own terms, in their own heads - don't launch on a noble crusade against one head of the Hydra.

You seem to think this was a hate-speech site. It was a site that weaponized police to attempt to get trans people killed, and harassed their cisgender, heterosexual family members and friends in order to pressure the trans target into committing suicide. A terrorist organization with a specific purpose.

Keffals had to flee Canada and travel across Ireland because, wherever she went, Kiwi Farmers would make bomb threats, post pictures of themselves near her location holding guns, and continue to SWAT her by calling in "terrorist threats" under her deadname.

Cloudflare stopped hosting KiwiFarms due to imminent, credible escalating threats against human life, after the site had already harassed three other victims to death. One of them lit herself on fire in a public park.

Wagging your finger about the need to tolerate hate speech is absurd. Their goal was to kill people. They did kill people. None of this was happening "in people's heads." They were not merely talking smack about how the groomer f*** should all be an hero, they were tracking individual, specific trans people about their daily business and harassing them relentlessly, including through use of the police force.


I'm so disgusted by the comparison of Mein Kampf and the Koran that I can't say anything else about it. Here... let's have another comparison ... Mein Kampf and Genderqueer (the book by Maia Kobabe which everyone is trying to ban). These are the same ... the same ... the same ...

[EuchreJack]

I merely implied that, rather than value all viewpoints equally, you ought to tolerate them equally.

More practically, and as a side-effect of that philosophy, I think that weeds return after being uprooted, but not when they're forced to survive without nutrition. I'd not be surprised to find several similar sites emerging in the next while, reacting to the cruel oppression of the KFs.

And, as an addendum to that addendum, Kiwi Farms was only ever a symptom of the problem. Give people the tools to fight hate-speech wherever they find it, on their own terms, in their own heads - don't launch on a noble crusade against one head of the Hydra.

You seem to think this was a hate-speech site. It was a site that weaponized police to attempt to get trans people killed, and harassed their cisgender, heterosexual family members and friends in order to pressure the trans target into committing suicide. A terrorist organization with a specific purpose.

Keffals had to flee Canada and travel across Ireland because, wherever she went, Kiwi Farmers would make bomb threats, post pictures of themselves near her location holding guns, and continue to SWAT her by calling in "terrorist threats" under her deadname.

Cloudflare stopped hosting KiwiFarms due to imminent, credible escalating threats against human life, after the site had already harassed three other victims to death. One of them lit herself on fire in a public park.

Wagging your finger about the need to tolerate hate speech is absurd. Their goal was to kill people. They did kill people. None of this was happening "in people's heads." They were not merely talking smack about how the groomer f*** should all be an hero, they were tracking individual, specific trans people about their daily business and harassing them relentlessly, including through use of the police force.


I'm so disgusted by the comparison of Mein Kampf and the Koran that I can't say anything else about it. Here... let's have another comparison ... Mein Kampf and Genderqueer (the book by Maia Kobabe which everyone is trying to ban). These are the same ... the same ... the same ...

Comparison to Mein Kampf just isn't accurate, as Kiwi Farms wasn't an ideological book but rather a terrorist organization.
Instead, compare Kiwi Farms to the (Neo-)Nazi Party, the Ku Klux Klan, or Al-Qaeda.

So, while the memory of the evil of Kiwi Farms should be remembered, their organization should be destroyed.

[Magmacube_tr]

Um, guys? Happy thread? I don't mean to be rude and uncaring and you are talking truth here, but this is where we post our funni.

[EuchreJack]

Spoiler: Happy Thread? (click to show/hide)

[Magmacube_tr]

Ahhhhh... That's more like it!

[KittyTac]

I merely implied that, rather than value all viewpoints equally, you ought to tolerate them equally.

More practically, and as a side-effect of that philosophy, I think that weeds return after being uprooted, but not when they're forced to survive without nutrition. I'd not be surprised to find several similar sites emerging in the next while, reacting to the cruel oppression of the KFs.

And, as an addendum to that addendum, Kiwi Farms was only ever a symptom of the problem. Give people the tools to fight hate-speech wherever they find it, on their own terms, in their own heads - don't launch on a noble crusade against one head of the Hydra.

You seem to think this was a hate-speech site. It was a site that weaponized police to attempt to get trans people killed, and harassed their cisgender, heterosexual family members and friends in order to pressure the trans target into committing suicide. A terrorist organization with a specific purpose.

Keffals had to flee Canada and travel across Ireland because, wherever she went, Kiwi Farmers would make bomb threats, post pictures of themselves near her location holding guns, and continue to SWAT her by calling in "terrorist threats" under her deadname.

Cloudflare stopped hosting KiwiFarms due to imminent, credible escalating threats against human life, after the site had already harassed three other victims to death. One of them lit herself on fire in a public park.

Wagging your finger about the need to tolerate hate speech is absurd. Their goal was to kill people. They did kill people. None of this was happening "in people's heads." They were not merely talking smack about how the groomer f*** should all be an hero, they were tracking individual, specific trans people about their daily business and harassing them relentlessly, including through use of the police force.


I'm so disgusted by the comparison of Mein Kampf and the Koran that I can't say anything else about it. Here... let's have another comparison ... Mein Kampf and Genderqueer (the book by Maia Kobabe which everyone is trying to ban). These are the same ... the same ... the same ...

Comparison to Mein Kampf just isn't accurate, as Kiwi Farms wasn't an ideological book but rather a terrorist organization.
Instead, compare Kiwi Farms to the (Neo-)Nazi Party, the Ku Klux Klan, or Al-Qaeda.

So, while the memory of the evil of Kiwi Farms should be remembered, their organization should be destroyed.

I meant the archives, not the site itself.

[Rolan7]

I've had a spate of good hands-on work this week, odd jobs.  The pay is good, and important, but TBH the feeling is even better.  I dabbled back into hard alcoholism last weekend but this has distracted me very well!
Got more tomorrow when I'm already sunburned and sore (I keep avoiding arm-day at the gym, it's all leg-day and "10 reps on whatever strikes my fancy") but tomorrow is super easy hauling.  It's going to be a nice wind-down.  I'm mostly bicep sore from reaaaaaching to scrape/wash/dry/paint stuff on a ladder.

And hey, my legs barely noticed!  Just some mild knee-bruising from flagrantly breaking the "three points of contact" rule.
_{also the off-day aches and pain feel kinda...  endorphin-y.  Hard to describe, brain makes feelgood chemicals, people think I'm high.}

[dragdeler]

bino