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[Duke 2.0]

 I'm... completely fine with him not doing the source material justice. Fairy tales and stories change with time and culture. Different lessons and purposes are used by different cultures based around the same technical story structure. There is nothing sacred about the various source materials as this very thing has happened time and time again across the globe. At the very least he has immortalized various motifs and themes that other media seems to have fallen off from.

 Animation is tough business. You do have the classics with the beautiful technical achievements and stories that fits itself well and tells whatever story and message it portrays well, but it's much more profitable to churn out episodes of stuff that sell to 'them mindless kids.' I do love some beautiful messages and ballsy moves, but I understand why a studio would dumb things down and do what they do. It's a shame animation is a kids thing now wheras in the past it was something for everybody, but you gotta do what you gotta do to keep this artform alive and the old masters hired.

[Ochita]

Oh god. Yet another dream that involves forumites. And lots of Karkat...
So weird, yet I found it nicer than the dream just before it..

[Euld]

I re-watched Sleeping Beauty with a friend a few years ago, man I was amazed.  Maleficent, the villian, was actually pretty frightening and yet fascinating.  She even swore, if you can call it that.  The exact phrase was "...and all the powers of Hell!"

Woah, she has her own Wiki page o_O

[Vector]

I'm... completely fine with him not doing the source material justice. Fairy tales and stories change with time and culture. Different lessons and purposes are used by different cultures based around the same technical story structure. There is nothing sacred about the various source materials as this very thing has happened time and time again across the globe. At the very least he has immortalized various motifs and themes that other media seems to have fallen off from.

The reason why the Hunchback of Notre Dame, in particular, bothered me, is because of the treatment of the disabled and other maligned groups.

The original novel gave us something I've never seen anywhere else.  The Disney version doesn't.  It isn't about "original," as in "what came first," so much as the narrowing of narratives.  And, because Disney is so popular, the novel dies, the film grows strong, our culture loses something that it really needed... we gain something that we need in a different way.

Or, if you want me to put it differently:

I need that book.  I don't say that about many things, but it's a book that I found I really needed.  And when I want to find other people who really needed that book, it becomes harder to do so.  Because all that most people know is the movie.

Better than the Phantom of the Opera, which has been twice-killed--the first time by the musical, the second time by a knockoff novel by Susan Kay, named Phantom, which is preferred by many fans.  It's glorified fanfiction.

I guess that maybe it's just me being petty, so that it's about me for once in my arguments.  Well, I allow myself to do that sometimes, and this time I'll just say:

I feel that Disney has been instrumental in taking away some of the culture that I needed to feel safe in the world, both a beloved novel and some fairy tales I read as a little girl.  I needed them, and I needed their cultural effects.  I wish, more than anything, that we could have both.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Yes, do watch all of Miyazaki's movies, and Ghibli in general. Except Nausicaa, do read the manga for Buddha's sake Vector. It's great.

[Acanthus117]

I watched that one about the girl whose parents turn into pigs or summat.

It was fucking awesome.

[Vector]

Except Nausicaa, do read the manga for Buddha's sake Vector. It's great.

Bahh, I read some of it when I was too young to appreciate it.  I think my library had a sort of super-condensed version, so all the text was nearly impossible to read.

However, I shall see if I can't find a better copy somewhere.

[KaelGotDwarves]

The manga of Nausicaa is seriously my favourite setting in just about any fictional work. It was actually wrapped up fairly recently, it's about twenty times more fleshed out than any of the movies.

[Duke 2.0]

 I can see how it negatively affects you and how it has harmed you, but the sucky part of the situation is that they did no wrong with what they did. I have no problem with you raising complaints, but I have to stand here to defend him in some sense. This is an odd situation here and I know you understand my side, and I'm trying my best to understand yours.

 Although from my understanding it's basically the same as if those stories and myths didn't exist? Where the help that the original fairy tales provided was not present in the popular mainstream interpretation and due to this being the culture you were in were not exposed to the story? It's a fools game to guess how popular these stories would be if Disney didn't capitalize on them but there is a good chance they would be as similarly obscure to the modern culture in this theoretical alternate timeline as the current one. I could even argue that the very popularity and opposition to the Disney interpretations has opened up a lot of these stories to people who may not have normally stumbled across them, due to researching the Disney versions and running across the originals.

 ...

 _{My favorite animated character, and woman character, was Ms. Brisby from The Secret of NIMH.}

[Vector]

No, where I never, ever have to have a conversation as follows:

"Have you heard of the Hunchback of Notre Dame?"

"It's such a good movie!  Quasi is so cute--"

"No, I meant the novel, haha."

"... There's a novel?"

"Yeah, Victor Hugo wrote it."

"Based on the movie?  I like the original better."


Or, "What's wrong with having a movie instead of a big fat 700-page book?  The movie makes little kids smile."

I argue that it tells bad lies about women, about handicapped people, that it undermines the construction of the book (i.e. all of the messages that were present, most of which were about social equality), that it results in hurtful messages being spread in mainstream society whilst dancing on the grave of a novel written to do the opposite.

"But the movie makes kids smile."


It's not about what Disney did.  It's about what happened because of what Disney did.  I... doubt that this was his intention.  I imagine he was just trying to bring down the wisdom of the ages, to hand to children in a way that they could understand and enjoy, in a beautiful way.  That's a good, noble, honorable goal.

The result has had some rather negative consequences.


Also, NIMH was one of my favorite books.  I don't know if I ever saw the movie, but goodness... I adored that novel so, so very much.

[SalmonGod]

I definitely need to read the Naasica manga.  Princess Mononoke is my favorite film, and as I understand it's kind of meant to be a conclusion to that manga.  So... yeah, I really really need to read that.

Anyway, I understand the organic nature of fairytales and similar sorts of stories, but that despite their variations, they were always designed to serve a cultural purpose.  The way I see it, they were supposed to help kids toughen and grow up and come to terms with the many ways in which the world can be both wonderful while also being dark and twisted.  Storytelling both carries the legacy of a culture and influences its evolution, and Disney took those stories and turned them into displays of super black & white morality to be seen by almost all children where in the end everything is made super happy when the shining hero inevitably destroys the black hearted villain.  I think this has played a large role in the polarization and immaturity of our culture.  My complaint is about more than faithfulness to the source material.

[Angel Of Death]

Generally, I hate Disney movies for the messages they send.  They are... absurdly anti-progressivist.

What?

I've never noticed a Disney movie being anti-progressivist.

But then again, I haven't watched a straight (Not mixed with Pixar or others) Disney movie in at least 7 years.

[Vector]

What?

I've never noticed a Disney movie being anti-progressivist.

But then again, I haven't watched a straight (Not mixed with Pixar or others) Disney movie in at least 7 years.

*sigh*

Well, you know what?

I'm planning on teaching a course in Notre-Dame de Paris second-semester Junior Year, and I'm planning on showing + discussing the Disney movie as well.  Regrettably, this also means rewatching the movie myself, beforehand.

Livestream, anyone, with Vector Rage-o-Comments on the side?

[Duke 2.0]

 I would love to do so, although I'll nitpick at various bits that grind me as a bit harsh but agreeable valid complaints. So long as you promise to watch The Secret of NIMH in a later stream. It's free on Hulu I think, so there are options for obtaining it.

 Edit: Be sure to give us plenty of time to prepare and plan ahead for this, I really do love your streams.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Livestream, anyone, with Vector Rage-o-Comments on the side?

If it weren't so bad for your blood pressure and mental state I would rather enjoy all your rants.