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Author Topic: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)  (Read 16242613 times)

hector13

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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199920 on: October 20, 2024, 11:50:55 am »

Feel free to do your own research I will not accomodate laziness for topics that are so well covered on the internet. Data on it are easy to find. Empowering is better than enabling.
While porc is better than beef, chicken has even less footprint. And indeed, a lot of vegetarian products based off other crops than soy, or on fungi are less harmful for the environment than soy products, but I wasn't comparing to those.

Asking someone to provide evidence for a claim is not laziness, it’s debate.

You made what I considered an extraordinary claim, and I wanted to see if you had some data to back that up. All the data I have seen prior to this indicates that all plant-based foods have a lower environmental impact than all meat-based foods. Had you provided your data, I may have learned something new.

A cursory search to confirm that found, among various things, the environmental impact of various food sources that aligns with what I initially thought, discovering that one cow is apparently worth 230 chickens in terms of human consumption of their meat, and factory farmed chickens once fully grown are unable to move around because their weight is too much for their joints to actually bear, this, which suggests my initial position was indeed correct.

~77% of soy production is used for animal feed, with the other ~23% being used for human consumption (food, cooking oil, biofuels), and the biggest driver for that is pork and poultry feed. Around 2/3 of the economic value of a soybean is from processing it into cake, more than 99% of which is used as animal feed.

Thus, any decrease in demand for poultry is likely to result in a decrease in demand for soybeans, and less land use for it. Further to that, the type of soy grown in South America is GM, and thus unlikely to be imported by at least the EU for human consumption.

For example, Romania grew a lot of GM soy prior to joining the EU, but joining in 2007 reduced output by 70%.

Quote
An interesting case was the cultivation of herbicide tolerant GM soybeans in Romania starting in 1999, which gave farmers new weed control options, increased average yields by over 30%, and made this crop the most profitable arable crop grown in Romania. In 2006, the GM soy varieties were grown on 137,000 ha and had reached an adoption rate of 68% compared with the total soy production area. Because of increased yields and plantings, Romania’s soy production soared, and surplus soybeans could be exported to other European countries while soybean meal imports decreased substantially. When Romania joined the European Union in 2007, where GM soybeans do not have a cultivation authorization, farmers were forced to return to conventional seed varieties. Because of strongly reduced profitability, the area planted with soybeans has shrunk by 70% within just two years, Romania became dependent on expensive soybean imports like the rest of Europe, and farmers lost a very profitable crop [13].

So I’ll ask you again, what’s your data?
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Maximum Spin

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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199921 on: October 20, 2024, 12:32:49 pm »

~77% of soy production is used for animal feed, with the other ~23% being used for human consumption (food, cooking oil, biofuels), and the biggest driver for that is pork and poultry feed. Around 2/3 of the economic value of a soybean is from processing it into cake, more than 99% of which is used as animal feed.

Thus, any decrease in demand for poultry is likely to result in a decrease in demand for soybeans, and less land use for it. Further to that, the type of soy grown in South America is GM, and thus unlikely to be imported by at least the EU for human consumption.
Hm, I have to disagree strongly with your presumption that this contradicts the claim. Even if chickens are fed 100% soybeans, transferring soybean demand from relatively resource-wasteful "boutique" non-GMO farming for human consumption to high-efficiency GMO animal feeds is likely to reduce the environmental footprint substantially. While it's true that this might transfer more of the supply to South American countries, this also frees up agricultural land elsewhere for other things, and the idea that farmers are cutting down the rainforest to plant soybean fields is largely a myth perpetuated by misunderstanding the regional ecology anyway.
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hector13

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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199922 on: October 20, 2024, 01:25:09 pm »

Eh, I’ll disagree. With pictures!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

From here.

In terms of greenhouse gases, the highest impact plant-based proteins have a lower impact than the lowest impact meat-based proteins.
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pisskop

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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199923 on: October 20, 2024, 01:33:13 pm »

Honestly beef is overrated.  Soon our petri dish meat will be ready for primetime and the resulting nutrient pastes will be printed like MREs
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Maximum Spin

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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199924 on: October 20, 2024, 02:01:33 pm »

Eh, I’ll disagree. With pictures!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

From here.

In terms of greenhouse gases, the highest impact plant-based proteins have a lower impact than the lowest impact meat-based proteins.
Without more information on how those numbers are calculated, I don't see any reason to take them as authoritative, but regardless, focusing solely on greenhouse gases is a very shortsighted way of interpreting ecological impact.
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Great Order

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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199925 on: October 20, 2024, 02:11:46 pm »

Why would we be jumping from growing soybeans as a low-quality, mass produced product to some super high quality "boutique" stuff? We aren't growing soybeans to make meat replacements in some super fancy manner, they're grown as any other farmed crop.

Also GMO crops are sold to people all the time. I mean sure, some people *cough* EU *cough* are upset about it for mysterious reasons (I can get behind the idea that companies shouldn't be allowed to monopolise fucking food production, but that's not the usual reason for opposition) but it's not like there's a global ban on GMO produce for humans specifically.

Also crops are almost universally better water, land and emissions wise than animals simply due to efficiency loss. Something like 2-5% of energy makes the jump from producers to primary consumers, then it's something like 10-20% per trophic level, so you're going to need 5-10x the land compared to just directly consuming the crop. Exceptions for semi-arable areas where the land is unsuited for crops but animals can graze on the grasses, for example.

It's also why food chains tend not to be that long. After a certain point so little energy is making it up the chain that for a new apex predator above the current ones to survive, they'd need ranges in the region of tens of thousands of Km^2. It's basically not worth the effort.
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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199926 on: October 20, 2024, 02:16:12 pm »

Why would we be jumping from growing soybeans as a low-quality, mass produced product to some super high quality "boutique" stuff? We aren't growing soybeans to make meat replacements in some super fancy manner, they're grown as any other farmed crop.

Also GMO crops are sold to people all the time. I mean sure, some people *cough* EU *cough* are upset about it for mysterious reasons (I can get behind the idea that companies shouldn't be allowed to monopolise fucking food production, but that's not the usual reason for opposition) but it's not like there's a global ban on GMO produce for humans specifically.
I'm only arguing off what hector said. If soybeans grown for human consumption are less likely to be GMO than soybeans grown for animal consumption, it holds that moving demand from the first category to the second will increase efficiency.
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hector13

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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199927 on: October 20, 2024, 03:40:37 pm »

I think I was arguing that there isn’t necessarily a direct pathway for soy farmers in South America just changing from selling their produce for animal feed to human feed.

I was a little distracted when typing that bit out but I know I was thinking about my high school economics. Nonsense like opportunity cost of producing one thing over another, the changes in supply and demand of soy for animal or human consumption, and different regulations in different markets meaning that land currently used for soy may not necessarily be used for soy if poultry demand decreased and human consumed soy demand increased.

There’s also a difference in what type of human consumption it is. Biofuels won’t require that much of a change, but soy for edamame beans is a bit more intensive than things like tofu or cooking oil.

Anyway, this is the study the BBC article is about, which goes into a bit more detail.
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King Zultan

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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199928 on: October 22, 2024, 04:27:35 am »

Soy beans are about the nastiest bean I've ever eaten, and unscented candles made from soy smell horrible.
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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199929 on: October 22, 2024, 09:20:14 am »

Zultan you will eat those words or you will eat soybeans.
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pisskop

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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199930 on: October 22, 2024, 04:55:26 pm »

- Daytrades Peleton all day (They announced a costco deal)
- Buys Peleton After Hours for 5.62
- Sells PTON 30 seconds later for 5.64

Its the little things.
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MaxTheFox

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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199931 on: October 22, 2024, 07:36:24 pm »

Well I feel like coming back to this forum. Wasn't too active for a while beforehand.
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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199932 on: October 23, 2024, 01:13:53 am »

Yay! Have you been having fun? ish?
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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199933 on: October 23, 2024, 02:21:02 am »

Zultan you will eat those words or you will eat soybeans.
No, I will not eat those words or those nasty beans.
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Re: [MILK] There were 12 eggs here what did you do with them? (Happy thread?!)
« Reply #199934 on: October 24, 2024, 10:12:46 pm »

Finally moved to a place with stuff that isn't run by the local christian identitarians